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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15193
07/31/05 03:14 AM
07/31/05 03:14 AM
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Tom,
I don't have any disagreement with the points that you have made. Jesus did reveal God's character to the world, but it was really nothing new. God had been revealing His character to the world since the beginning of time.
Of course God loved this world and that had been in evidence throughout history. Of course God wanted to save this world and that too had always been in evidence.
The great controversy is not centered around the question of "What is God like?"
The great controversy is centered around the question ...."Is it possible to be "like God/an independent being"" or to exist independently from God?"
This is the true nature of evil/sin.....The desire to be "like God" or an "independent being".
Jesus demonstrated to the universe that it was an absolute neccessity that all "created beings" remain dependent upon their "Creator".
Yes....the death of Jesus demonstrated God's Love to the universe, but God's Love was not being questioned.
More importantly though.....
Jesus' death demonstrated to the universe how evil the desire to be "like God/an Independent Being" truly was.
The "like God/Independent beings" wannabes had become murderers, thieves, liars, etc. They were no where near to being "like God".
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15194
07/31/05 12:42 PM
07/31/05 12:42 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
This is the true nature of evil/sin.....The desire to be "like God" or an "independent being".
Here the question is: what “being like God” means? For God truly wants us to be like him.
Christ prayed:
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
and God created us in his image.
So we see that there are two concepts of “God”; a false and a true. The false seems to rotate around a “physical/functional” concept while it introduces “another spirit”; while the true “being like God”, which God purposes us to be, is founded on being “one spirit” regardless of the physical/functional.
This Christ came to reveal. This he lives; this is why we crucified him. For that ‘other spirit’ is the “Law of Sin and Death” while God’s spirit is the “Law of Life”.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15195
07/31/05 03:02 PM
07/31/05 03:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John Boskovic:
Here the question is: what “being like God” means? For God truly wants us to be like him.
John,
You have asked a very good and important question.
The answer is......
God wishes for us to be "like Him" because He created us in His image. This means that we should emulate His character in every way. He has also endowed us with physical traits that allow us to be creative in manipulating the elements of this world into homes, tools, machinery, etc. As we continue to grow and use these "talents" in a good way, it gives glory to Him, because He is our creator and our "good works" show how well He has created us.
Of course, the power of choice, that He has endowed us with allows us to use these "God-given talents" for bad.
There is a limitation to how much we can become "like God" though.....
Fact of Life #2: It is impossible for God to create another God.
God is self-existent. We, as created being, will always be dependent upon Him for our continual existence. The Breath of Life that gives us the ability to live, comes only from Him.
God is all knowing. God knows all, including the future. This is something that we, as created beings can never attain.
God is all present. God can be everywhere simultaneously. We, as created beings, do not have that capability.
God is all powerful. God is capable of creating something from nothing by just speaking a word. This is something that we, as created beings, can not do.
So you see, there are limitations to how much "like God" we can become.
Satan believed that there were NO LIMITATIONS to what he could become. He truly believed that he could become "like God" in every way. He also believed that all other created beings could ascend to this level of "God-likeness".
I hope that this answers your question.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15196
08/01/05 04:54 AM
08/01/05 04:54 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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It seems to me, Bob(?), that we see things fairly similarly, as I agree pretty much with your points regarding dependency and independance, as you appear to agree with the points I made, sort of. The difference is one of emphasis. I think the dependence/independence issue was there, as you point out, but it was a minor issue compared to the question of the character of God. If one looks at inspiration, one sees the emphasis of the character of God much more clearly enunciated then the independence issue.
For example, from Scripture there is John 17, as John B. quoted, and from the SOP there is the ST 1/20/90 article, "God Manifest in Christ" or "God manifest in the Flesh" (or similar -- the date's correct, title maybe off a bit) which makes the point that the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God that we might be set right with Him (I'm pretty sure I quoted it in the earlier post).
There was one point, however, that I disagreed strongly with, and that was the point that Jesus did nothing new in revealing God. If this is what you really think, I think that's too bad. That truth is really the central point of Christianity.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15197
08/02/05 01:41 AM
08/02/05 01:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
There was one point, however, that I disagreed strongly with, and that was the point that Jesus did nothing new in revealing God. If this is what you really think, I think that's too bad. That truth is really the central point of Christianity.
Tom,
Are you stating that the God of the OT was totally different than the God that Jesus revealed?
Does not the OT record reveal of God of Love and Forgiveness? Does it not reveal a God of Kindness? Does it not reveal a God who cares for His creation?
Jesus did not reveal to the universe a different aspect of God that was unknown.
He did demonstrate to the universe a how a human being could remain totally dependent upon His Creator and how God could work great and marvelous things through His Son as a result.
Jesus also demonstrated to the universe how truly evil the desire for independence was. Independence was so evil that it attempted to destroy the One who chose to remain dependent upon His Creator.
A desire for Independence from God is the core evil that causes His Creation to commit evil acts.
This is the crux of the Great Controversy.
I do not find any Biblical evidence that would show that God's character was being attacked by Satan. Could you share some references?
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15198
08/02/05 02:51 AM
08/02/05 02:51 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Do you not believe in the Spirit of Prophesy? I take it that you accept that EGW does present the points I was making, since you avoiding suggesting a reference from her writings. Do you think her view of the Great Controversy was wrong? I think the onlooking universe was much more interested in God's character than in whether humans could be dependent upon God. In the temptation in the Garden of Eden, the serpent insinuated that God did not have the best interests of His creatures at heart. Whether or not God was trustworthy became a point of contention, and when Adam and Eve believed the lie, it profoundly impacted them. When God came to walk with them, they did from Him. Why? Because they were ashamed and afraid. This is what sin had done to them. They no longer trusted God. Jesus came to reveal God's true character. In John 17:3 He said that to know God is life eternal, and in vss. 4 and 6 He said that He had come to make known God's character. Christ's mission was to set men right by revealing God's character. Col. 1:19-21 says: quote:
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
The cross accomplishes reconciliation for both human beings and the unfallen beings by making known the character of God.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15199
08/03/05 02:10 AM
08/03/05 02:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Do you not believe in the Spirit of Prophesy? I take it that you accept that EGW does present the points I was making, since you avoiding suggesting a reference from her writings. Do you think her view of the Great Controversy was wrong?
Tom,
I would rather not get into a discussion concerning the validity of EGW's writings. That could be saved for another time/topic. I fully understand your reasoning for using her writings in presenting your position on this topic.
I would like to invite you to look at a different perspective that I am presenting using the Biblical record solely.
quote:
Tom wrote:
In the temptation in the Garden of Eden, the serpent insinuated that God did not have the best interests of His creatures at heart. Whether or not God was trustworthy became a point of contention, and when Adam and Eve believed the lie, it profoundly impacted them. When God came to walk with them, they did from Him. Why? Because they were ashamed and afraid. This is what sin had done to them. They no longer trusted God.
Tom,
Let us look at three different temptations to sin that three different individuals experienced and see if there are any common elements within these instances:
Lucifer:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Lucifer believed that He could become "equal with God". He believed that he could become an "independent being".
Eve:
Genesis 3:5.6; For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods , knowing good and evil.
6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise , she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Eve yielded to the temptation to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil because she believed that it would "me her wise", or in other words, "like God".
Jesus
Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God , command that these stones be made bread.
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God , cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus was tempted by the Devil to act as an "independent being/God" by turning the stones to bread and by jumping from the top of the temple. Fortunately for our sakes, he was able to resist this temptation.
As can be clearly seen, each of these three individuals was tempted to be "like God". Only one of them successfully resisted this temptation.
Please note that in these three temptation, no mention of God's character was made, nor was there a direct attack against God. Each of these individuals was tempted to be something that they could not be.....God. (Now you may state that Jesus was God, and we may have to start another thread to discuss this further.)
The point that I am trying to make is this.....
The core of all evil is the desire to be "like God" or an "independent being". It is based upon the false belief that a "created being" can become an "independent being" such as God is.
When a "created being" believes that they can become an "independent being" a "spiritual separation" begins to take place between the "created being" and the "Creator". As a result of this "spiritual separation" the "created being" begins to commit "acts of misbehavioursa"(i.e lying, stealing, killing, etc.)
I have presented this same perspective on several other discussions that have been started on this forum, but the discussion comes to an abrupt end at that point and no one seems to want to continue the discussion. It will be interesting to see if this happens again. It appears that the other participants in this thread have already chosen not to continue their participation.
The Great Controversy is centered around the dispute between God and His Creation as to whether it is possible for a "created being" to become and "independent being".
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15200
08/03/05 04:24 AM
08/03/05 04:24 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Bob: I would like to invite you to look at a different perspective that I am presenting using the Biblical record solely.
Tom: Why?
Regarding the temptations, each temptation can be seen as a lack of trusing in God. When Eve was tempted, the essence of the temptation of the temptation was that God did not have her best interest at heart. This has to do with God's character. Similarly when Satan tempted Christ "If Thou be the Son of God" this also was tempting Him to doubt God.
The root of sin is unbelief.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15201
08/03/05 04:03 PM
08/03/05 04:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Tom, the death of Jesus was necessary for many reasons - the primary reason He died was to satisfy God's demand that the death penalty be executed. Earlier you asked if God could have pardoned us without the death of Jesus, and you referred to God's willingness to pardon Lucifier without death as evidence He could have, but you failed to prove that Lucifer had "sinned" by the time God offered to restore him to his former status. quote:
He had not at that time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had left his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office.
Do you also believe Eve sinned before she ate the forbidden fruit?
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15202
08/03/05 07:12 PM
08/03/05 07:12 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, the death of Jesus was necessary for many reasons - the primary reason He died was to satisfy God's demand that the death penalty be executed. Earlier you asked if God could have pardoned us without the death of Jesus, and you referred to God's willingness to pardon Lucifier without death as evidence He could have, but you failed to prove that Lucifer had "sinned" by the time God offered to restore him to his former status.
MM, I did prove this, in the post of July 29, 2005 10:41 PM of this thread.
Here's the key portion of the quote:
quote:
Again and again he was offered
496
pardon, on condition of repentance and submission.
This shows both that Satan had sinned repeatedly, and that he knew what he was doing. To see that Satan had sinned, it suffices to understand that pardon would not have been offered had sin not been committed. To see that Satan knew what he was doing, one need only understand that he was the most intelligent being ever created. While he may not have understood what he was doing at first, by the time "again" had rolled around, he would have known he was doing wrong, let alone "again and again."
A key point to notice on the account of Satan's repeated sin is that he was offered pardon without blood; just submission and repentance was necessary. Why? I believe the following provides the answer:
quote:
Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.(DA 762)
Satan had known God so well, that a further revelation of His character would not have helped. However, Adam and Eve did not know God so well, so it was still possible for them to be reconciled to Him by a revelation of His love. In fact, the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to set men right by a revelation of God's character:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.(ST 1/20/90)
What was the object of Christ's mission? The revelation of God to the world. Why was this His mission? To set men right with God. How does revealing God's character set men right with God? Man's mind had been darkened by the sophistry of Satan. By beholding God's love, man might be brought back to God.
Notice how this line of thought ties in with the Scriptures:
quote:
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God (1 Pet. 3:18).
Christ died to bring us to God. The same thought is found one chapter earlier:
quote:
24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls (1 Pet. 2:24, 25).
This also introduces the thought that we might live for righteousness. Paul expresses this thought here:
quote:
5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
5:15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Cor. 5:14, 15)
Here the point is brought out that Christ died that we might live for Him (which is equivalent, in my mind, to living for righteousness, as Peter puts it).
Consider the following as well by Paul:
quote:
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled (Col. 1:19-21).
This brings out the same point, and explains that the reconciliation is accomplished by fixing the mind, which was previously alienated and at enmity with God. So the purpose of Christ's ministry, including His life and death, was to fix our mind; to heal the alienation and enmity we have against God. We are "set right" by the revelation of God's love.
Every text in scripture which clearly provides a reason for Christ's death does so in terms of His accomplishing a victory over the forces of evil or in terms of reconciling us to God. No text clearly articulates that Christ's death was necessary in order to solve some legal problem God was having or to enable Him to be able to forgive us. One can cite Rom. 3:21-26 or Isa. 53, but these passages can be interpreted in several ways, as opposed to the texts which I cited, which are interpreted the same by both sides of the issue (your side agrees with the reasons I have given, but says they were necessary but not sufficient).
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