***** STAFF EDIT *****

To say "it is incorrect to assume the laws of health are self-acting" and "Jesus manages the consequences" is like saying we can eat and eat and it does not affect our bodies Jesus does the damage.

"He who gorges himself with many kinds of food at a meal is doing himself injury... If you feel all wrought up, and everything seems to go wrong, perhaps it is because you are suffering the consequences of eating a great variety of food.—Manuscript 41, 1908."

Conversely...

"Right physical habits promote mental superiority. Intellectual power, physical stamina, and length of life depend upon immutable laws. Nature’s God will not interfere to preserve men from the consequences of violating nature’s requirements. He who strives for the mastery must be temperate in all things. Daniel’s clearness of mind and firmness of purpose, his power in acquiring knowledge and in resisting temptation, were due in a great degree to the plainness of his diet in connection with his life of prayer.—The Youth’s Instructor, July 9, 1903 (Messages to Young People, 242)

How about alcohol, is it Jesus who damages us too?

"As we face these things, and see the terrible consequences of liquor drinking, shall we not do all in our power to rally to the help of God in fighting against this great evil? At the foundation of liquor drinking lie wrong habits of eating. Those who believe present truth should refuse to drink tea or coffee, for these excite a desire for stronger stimulant. They should refuse to eat flesh meat, for this too excites a desire for strong drink. Wholesome food, prepared with taste and skill, should be our diet now. Those who are not health reformers treat themselves unfairly and unwisely. By the indulgence of appetite they do themselves fearful injury. Some may think that the question of diet is not important enough to be included in the question of religion. But such make a great mistake. God’s Word declares, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.” The subject of temperance, in all its bearings, has an important place in the working out of our salvation. Because of wrong habits of eating, the world is becoming more and more immoral.—Letter 49, 1902. {Ev 265.2}

“Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me.” It is inevitable that children should suffer from the consequences of parental wrongdoing, but they are not punished for the parents’ guilt, except as they participate in their sins. It is usually the case, however, that children walk in the steps of their parents. By inheritance and example the sons become partakers of the father’s sin. Wrong tendencies, perverted appetites, and debased morals, as well as physical disease and degeneracy, are transmitted as a legacy from father to son, to the third and fourth generation. This fearful truth should have a solemn power to restrain men from following a course of sin. {PP 306.3}

The laws of nature (which includes health) are employed by Jesus. They are not self-acting, they cannot do what they do independent of Jesus. Like a car they require an operator. If Jesus left off using them to serve His purposes they would simply cease to do anything - rivers would not flow, plants would not grow, hearts would not pump blood, etc. Every single function of nature is totally, completely dependent upon Jesus employing them every single second of every single day.


Cause follows effect because Jesus chooses to operate the laws of nature accordingly. It isn't random or arbitrary. Jesus doesn't violate His laws to bless or curse or punish sinners. Some people believe nature is self-acting and self-destructive and that Jesus must work to prevent it from destroying the world. They say the Flood happened because Jesus chose to cease preventing it from happening. But nature is not self-acting. Jesus employed the laws of nature to cause the Flood.

Cancer cells are not self-acting. Germs, bacteria, viruses, diseases, etc are not self-acting. They answer to Jesus. He operates, employs them to serve His purposes. For example, He gave Moses leprosy in an instant and took it away in an instant. The Hebrew boys suffered no ill effect when cast into the fiery furnace. Ananias died in an instant. Paul shook off the viper with no consequences. Jesus manages the outcome of everything that happens. What seems like cause and effect is actually the result of Jesus employing the laws of nature to serve His purposes.

Moses' hand became leprous because of his lack of faith. He was afraid of the responsibility God was giving him so as a sign God told him to put his hand to his breast (to himself) then to withdraw it and it was covered in leprosy. This is because Satan wanted to destroy Moses (the deliverer through whom the 'seed' would come) and God permitted the attack to show him that he must have faith or Satan would devour him. If God were to withdraw His protection from Moses he would have been destroyed by Satan immediately. Same with Meshach Shadrach and Abednego, God protected them from the destruction Satan wanted inflict.

"Satan is the originator of disease, and the physician is warring against his work and power. Sickness of the mind prevails everywhere. Nine tenths of the diseases from which men suffer have their foundation here. Perhaps some living home trouble is, like a canker, eating to the very soul and weakening the life forces. Remorse for sin sometimes undermines the constitution and unbalances the mind. There are erroneous doctrines also, as that of an eternally burning hell and the endless torment of the wicked, that, by giving exaggerated and distorted views of the character of God, have produced the same result upon sensitive minds. Infidels have made the most of these unfortunate cases, attributing insanity to religion, but this is a gross libel, and one which they will not be pleased to meet by and by. The religion of Christ, so far from being the cause of insanity, is one of its most effectual remedies; for it is a potent soother of the nerves. {CH 324.2}

You are putting on God's head the attributes of Satan M&M. You are confusing God's intervention with God having purpose to deliver cancer and disease. You are causing confusion in God's church so you are being an instrument that would bring disease.

"Satan, the author of disease and misery, will approach God’s people where he can have the greatest success. He has controlled the appetite in a great measure from the time of his successful experiment with Eve, in leading her to eat the forbidden fruit. " {CD 375.3}

"The human family have followed in a course of disobedience, and, like Eve, have been beguiled by Satan to disregard the prohibitions God has made, flattering themselves that the consequences would not be as fearful as had been apprehended. The human family have violated the laws of health, and have run to excess in almost everything. Disease has been steadily increasing. The cause has been followed by the effect.—Spiritual Gifts 4a:120, 1864 {CD 145.2}

"From the light God has given me, the prevalence of cancer and tumors is largely due to gross living on dead flesh." 410 {CCh 229.5}

Satan is the cause of disease, not God. For you to say that God gave Moses leprosy is like saying He gave Job the boils and sores upon his body to the point of death. DO YOU KNOW THE STORY OF JOB? God permitted SATAN to deliver the plague, it was not God who did it.

Now on the subject of the destruction of the planet with flood and fire, God did His strange act. This is completely different. You need to go to God's schoolhouse as a student so He can teach you.

One more point.

To say "What seems like cause and effect is actually the result of Jesus employing the laws of nature to serve His purposes" is like saying the laws of chemistry or physics is not based off of cause and effect. For every action is an equal and opposite reaction.

In science they know that if you use the processes of hydrolyzation you get one or more new compounds. They know that if you want to combust something you always need Oxygen and it always results in heat. In Dietary science they know if you eat too many calories it gets stored as fat in your body.

They know that too much bad Cholesterol in your bloodstream causes arterial plaque. They know that if you continue to eat like this you are destined to die early. For a Christian to think that they can eat and live like this after being told by God not live like that is not only detrimental to health it is tempting the forbearance of God.

When Jesus was tempted by Satan to throw Himself off the temple because the word of God says "angels would bear you up" Jesus replied "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God".

In what you're saying, that the dietary laws are not following a cause and effect model is not only unscientific, it is against the commandments of God.

To live contrary to the dietary laws, relying upon the intervention of God, is tempting fate. I hope this makes sense because you, as an ex pastor, have been in the position to teach men your flawed theories and you endanger not only yourself but others in teaching this.

God can counteract any of His established laws of science, usually by employing angels or divine intervention, I.E. walking on water, walking into a fire and not burning, etc., but this is not the earthly rules, it is heavenly, it is beyond our established fallen worldly laws of physics.

Jesus spoke the laws of nature into existence and sustains them by the power of His word, but we are connected to heaven only through Christ. The laws of nature are not different for men who are not Christians.

We have the blessing of heaven to be connected to the source of life who can walk on water and gave us the right to be filled with the will of the Father to resurrect others if it is His will, but this is not the rule in this fallen world. You put the paradigm upside down Mountain Man. Jesus only dwells in us if we accept Him, He is not in all of us, but He does sustain us all. We are born with a measure of faith, but if it not strengthened and responded to

Man the more I read this the more upset I get. Do you think Jesus would cause babies to be born with cancer or birth defects?

Is it God's will children are born plagued with parasites or aids or malaria or scurvy? How about without eyes or needing bone marrow transplants? You blame this on Jesus.

I was praying about your response Mountain Man and I was led to the perfect quote to answer your statement.

"The book of Genesis gives quite a definite account of social and individual life, and yet we have no record of an infant being born blind, deaf, crippled, deformed, or imbecile. There is not an instance upon record of a natural death in infancy, childhood, or early manhood. There is no account of men and women dying of disease. Obituary notices in the book of Genesis run thus: “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.” “And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died.” Concerning others, the record states: He lived to a good old age; and he died. It was so rare for a son to die before the father that such an occurrence was considered worthy of record: “And Haran died before his father Terah.” Haran was a father of children before his death. {FE 22.1}
God endowed man with so great vital force that he has withstood the accumulation of disease brought upon the race in consequence of perverted habits, and has continued for six thousand years. This fact of itself is enough to evidence to us the strength and electrical energy that God gave to man at his creation. It took more than two thousand years of crime and indulgence of base passions to bring bodily disease upon the race to any great extent. If Adam, at his creation, had not been endowed with twenty times as much vital force as men now have, the race, with their present habits of living in violation of natural law, would have become extinct. At the time of Christ’s first advent, the race had degenerated so rapidly that an accumulation of disease pressed upon that generation, bringing in a tide of woe, and a weight of misery inexpressible. {FE 22.2}
The wretched condition of the world at the present time has been presented before me. Since Adam’s fall, the race has been degenerating. Some of the reasons for the present deplorable condition of men and women, formed in the image of God, were shown me. And a sense of how much must be done to arrest, even in a degree, the physical, mental, and moral decay, caused my heart to be sick and faint. God did not create the race in its present feeble condition. This state of things is not the work of Providence, but the work of man; it has been brought about by wrong habits and abuses, by violating the laws that God has made to govern man’s existence. Through the temptation to indulge appetite, Adam and Eve first fell from their high, holy, and happy estate. And it is through the same temptation that the race have become enfeebled. They have permitted appetite and passion to take the throne, and to bring into subjection reason and intellect. {FE 23.1}
The violation of physical law, and the consequence, human suffering, have so long prevailed that men and women look upon the present state of sickness, suffering, debility, and premature death as the appointed lot of humanity. Man came from the hand of his Creator, perfect and beautiful in form, and so filled with vital force that it was more than a thousand years before his corrupt appetites and passions, and general violations of physical law, were sensibly felt upon the race. More recent generations have felt the pressure of infirmity and disease still more rapidly and heavily with every generation. The vital forces have been greatly weakened by the indulgence of appetite and lustful passion. {FE 23.2}
The patriarchs from Adam to Noah, with but few exceptions, lived nearly a thousand years. Since the days of Noah, the length of life has been tapering. Those suffering with disease were brought to Christ from every city, town, and village for Him to heal; for they were afflicted with all manner of diseases. And disease has been steadily on the increase through successive generations since that period. Because of the continued violation of the laws of life, mortality has increased to a fearful extent. The years of man have been shortened, so that the present generation pass to the grave, even before the age at which the generations that lived the first few thousand years after the creation came upon the stage of action. {FE 24.1}
Disease has been transmitted from parents to children, from generation to generation. Infants in the cradle are miserably afflicted because of the sins of their parents, which have lessened their vital force. Their wrong habits of eating and dressing, and their general dissipation, are transmitted as an inheritance to their children. Many are born insane, deformed, blind, deaf, and a very large class are deficient in intellect. The strange absence of principle which characterizes this generation, and which is shown in their disregard of the laws of life and health, is astonishing. Ignorance prevails upon this subject, while light is shining all around them. With the majority, their principal anxiety is, What shall I eat? what shall I drink? and wherewithal shall I be clothed? Notwithstanding all that is said and written in regard to how we should treat our bodies, appetite is the great law which governs men and women generally. {FE 24.2}
The moral powers are weakened, because men and women will not live in obedience to the laws of health, and make this great subject a personal duty. Parents bequeath to their offspring their own perverted habits, and loathsome diseases corrupt the blood and enervate the brain. The majority of men and women remain in ignorance of the laws of their being, and indulge appetite and passion at the expense of intellect and morals, and seem willing to remain in ignorance of the result of their violation of nature’s laws. They indulge the depraved appetite in the use of slow poisons, which corrupt the blood, and undermine the nervous forces, and in consequence bring upon themselves sickness and death. Their friends call the result of this course the dispensation of Providence. In this they insult Heaven. They rebelled against the laws of nature, and suffered the punishment for thus abusing her laws. Suffering and mortality now prevail everywhere, especially among children. How great is the contrast between this generation, and those who lived during the first two thousand years! {FE 24.3}

MM's claims are the same as elle's on this. God is the source of evil.

elle appears to want to put her trust in pavement. so be it.

While you jsot, are agreeing with me in the majority on this topic, this I can not agree with: "Now on the subject of the destruction of the planet with flood and fire, God did His strange act. This is completely different. You need to go to God's schoolhouse as a student so He can teach you."

What is God's strange act? When He acts like the devil and causes destruction and evil? NO. God never changes. God's strange act is when He does not overrule evil with mercy, He lets evil play out unobstructed. And the fires at the end is a clean up process, burning up the stubble, Malachi 4:1.

APL thank you for your insight on the issue before, but may I please correct you on this point. It is not evil for God to have His angels pour out the last seven plagues, is it?

The righteous angels who stand next to the throne of God Hold the vials which contain the Seven last plagues.

The coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of angels will cause the wicked to be slain by His glory, their tongues and eyes will consume away because of their wickedness, while calling on the rocks to kill them. What more terrifying event has there ever been?

The righteousness of God is a consuming fire to the wicked. Please be careful; how you address this issue. It is a strange act for God to execute justice and punish the wicked and Satan is not in control of hell.

Evil angels are permitted to do evil to men in this day and age but God has also sent His righteous angels in the past to do His work.

"A single (righteous) angel destroyed all the firstborn of the Egyptians, and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he allows. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {4SP 441.1}

"I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, “It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked.” {EW 52.1}

"Then I saw that the seven last plagues were soon to be poured out upon those who have no shelter; yet the world regarded them no more than they would so many drops of water that were about to fall. I was then made capable of enduring the awful sight of the seven last plagues, the wrath of God. I saw that His anger was dreadful and terrible, and if He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world would be as though they had never been, or would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues that would come upon them, and they would find no deliverance, but be destroyed by them. Terror seized me, and I fell upon my face before the angel and begged of him to cause the sight to be removed, to hide it from me, for it was too dreadful. Then I realized, as never before, the importance of searching the Word of God carefully, to know how to escape the plagues which that Word declares shall come on all the ungodly who shall worship the beast and his image and receive his mark in their foreheads or in their hands. It was a great wonder for me that any could transgress the law of God and tread down His holy Sabbath, when such awful threatenings and denunciations were against them. {EW 64.2}

So, the Bible says that God creats evil. You have established that. but, you have not addressed the question as to the meaning of the word "evil."

"Evil" may have a moral sense such as we usually attribute to Saten. It also may mean trouble that comes such as a fire that burns up ones home. The bottom line is that the Hebrew word used for "evil" in this verse has both meanings. So, which is the meaning that the Biblical writer intends to communicate?

As correctly cited above, God says: "I make peace, and create evil:. . ." That context, as I see it reminds me of conflict, which may be evil. (Some conflict is good.) "Peace" implies a lack of conflict, or war. In contrast to peace, God may create trouble which can be conflict or war.

Looking forward to Isaiah 47:11, you will see exactly this. In that verse, "evil" is described as trouble, which (see vs. 9) can be widowhood or loss of children.

NOTE: See also Amos 3:6. Here "evil" carries the meaning of clamity, affliction and/or judgement.