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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Daryl] #152359
05/06/13 12:10 AM
05/06/13 12:10 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
James is referring to this post:
Originally Posted By: Daryl
I think there are natural consequences in relation to our wrong choices.

If I choose to drink too much strong drink, I am going to get intoxicated.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Daryl] #152371
05/06/13 04:11 PM
05/06/13 04:11 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
(elle - you can ignore this post)
I was reading through The Desire of Ages this week. The question, does God create evil? NO. To associate evil with God is Satan's plan.
Quote:
With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. {DA 21.3}

It testifies that the thoughts of God toward us are "thoughts of peace, and not of evil." Jeremiah 29:11 {57.1}

That there should be upon the earth one life free from the defilement of evil was an offense and a perplexity to the prince of darkness. {DA 71.2}

He was wise to discern evil, and strong to resist it. {DA 72.1}

Because the life of Jesus condemned evil, He was opposed, both at home and abroad. {DA 88.1}

Often He was accused of cowardice for refusing to unite with them in some forbidden act; but His answer was, It is written, "The fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." Job 28:28. {DA 88.3}

In the day of final judgment, ... Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy will then have been made plain. In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. {DA 58.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Mountain Man] #152388
05/07/13 05:23 PM
05/07/13 05:23 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, cancer cells are not self-acting. They would cease to function if Jesus ceased to employ them. This does not mean Jesus causes cancer.



Most of the time Jesus permits cause and effect to run its normal course. However, germs, viruses, bacteria, etc are not self-acting. Again, they depend on Jesus for their existence and their activity. He does not sit back and allow things to happen without guidance and limitations. He sets limits and enforces them ensuring things play out according to His will. He is in control - not sin, not sickness, not man, not evil angels. Jesus doesn't force sinners to sin. He doesn't randomly make them sick. He does, however, manage the outcome of their choices.


Ok,
Cancer cells are not self-acting.
But Jesus does not cause cancer.
Jesus guides the cancer cells.
He makes sure they act according to His will.

What can we make of that if a reasonable person would conclude Jesus causes Cancer sickness.

And at the same time,
Sin is not self-acting.
But Jesus guides sin.
He doesn't force sinners to sin, but guides them in their sin.
And makes sure sin acts according to His will.

wow.

Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Gregory] #152399
05/08/13 03:21 PM
05/08/13 03:21 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Quote:
APL thank you for your insight on the issue before, but may I please correct you on this point. It is not evil for God to have His angels pour out the last seven plagues, is it?
James, I believe you would think it is silly that God directs and guides cancer so that it will consume people who violate health laws. That God is sitting up there on a cloud and sees someone who doesn't do what He says, so rather than it being a cause and effect, God directs and guides those cancer cells to start consuming his internal organs.

However, is it any different from your idea that God would directly cause or direct the plagues?
Quote:
Re 16:2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. (NKJV)
Do you say that it's not cause and effect or from some other reason but that God is sitting up on His cloud and looks down and sees that this sore causing pestilence, through cause and effect, would not have harmed one or other specific individuals, so He says, "I can fix that", and so He directs that sore causing pestilence, which would not have otherwise caused harm to that person, and directs it so it causes the harm to that person which He desires them to experience?

The Bible says the angels pour out the vials.
The Bible says God slew Saul.
We know what we think "slaying" means.
We know what we think "pouring out" means.
Shall we need any further investigation as to what the Bible is saying?

Quote:
Re 15:1 ¶ Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. (NKJV)
The Bible says the wrath of God is complete in the seven last plagues. According to Romans 1, how is the wrath of God revealed? Could the wrath of God be revealed and completed in the seven last plagues?

Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Elle] #152646
05/27/13 04:21 AM
05/27/13 04:21 AM
T
truthseeker  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 15
Colorado, USA
This is why relying solely on the KJV or any 1 translation will get you into trouble. I suggest you get a Lamsa's translation from the Aramaic as a co-study Bible.

Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: truthseeker] #152649
05/27/13 01:28 PM
05/27/13 01:28 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: truthseeker
This is why relying solely on the KJV or any 1 translation will get you into trouble. I suggest you get a Lamsa's translation from the Aramaic as a co-study Bible.
Is what kland posted really that hard to understand?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: APL] #152707
05/31/13 01:39 PM
05/31/13 01:39 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Mrs. White has a good statement that will help put the topic of this thread into the correct perspective. God is not in the business of either creating or permitting evil...but the evil has been permitted to run its course in order to fully eradicate it forever. The fewer lives lost in the process, the better by God's perspective. This means that sometimes lives must be lost in order that others are not similarly affected by sin.

Note how Mrs. White characterizes God's response to a particular sin in the time of the Israelites in the following story.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
On one occasion the son of an Israelitish woman and of an Egyptian, one of the mixed multitude that had come up with Israel from Egypt, left his own part of the camp, and entering that of the Israelites, claimed the right to pitch his tent there. This the divine law forbade him to do, the descendants of an Egyptian being excluded from the congregation until the third generation. A dispute arose between him and an Israelite, and the matter being referred to the judges was decided against the offender. {PP 407.4}
Enraged at this decision, he cursed the judge, and in the heat of passion blasphemed the name of God. He was immediately brought before Moses. The command had been given, "He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death" (Exodus 21:17); but no provision had been made to meet this case. So terrible was the crime that there was felt to be a necessity for special direction from God. The man was placed in ward until the will of the Lord could be ascertained. God Himself pronounced the sentence; by the divine direction the blasphemer was conducted outside the camp and stoned to death. Those who had been witness to the sin placed their hands upon his head, thus solemnly testifying to the truth of the charge against him. Then they threw the first stones, and the people who stood by afterward joined in executing the sentence. {PP 407.5}
This was followed by the announcement of a law to meet similar offenses: "Thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." Leviticus 24:15, 16. {PP 408.1}
There are those who will question God's love and His justice in visiting so severe punishment for words spoken in the heat of passion. But both love and justice require it to be shown that utterances prompted by malice against God are a great sin. The retribution visited upon the first offender would be a warning to others, that God's name is to be held in reverence. But had this man's sin been permitted to pass unpunished, others would have been demoralized; and as the result many lives must eventually have been sacrificed. {PP 408.2}


If God did not respond in judgment and justice, executing the penalty of sin upon the sinner, many others would be infected by the sin and would be lost as a result. So God's act of punishment is actually an act of salvation--saving the lives of many who might otherwise have followed the evil example they had witnessed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Green Cochoa] #152708
05/31/13 02:17 PM
05/31/13 02:17 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Keep also in mind Green - the PP quote is speaking of the civil government. The same rules include Exodus 21:24, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, ... Civil government today is still based on this rule. Also observe who inflicted the punishment. Was by God's hand? Contrast these rules with the view of God we get in from God's son. John 8:11, neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more. And Matthew 5:38, you have heard...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: APL] #152721
06/01/13 12:46 AM
06/01/13 12:46 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

You have part of the truth there. It was God's system of government, a so-called "theocracy," that was involved here. So, yes, it was "government." And yes, perhaps governments today still bear some resemblance to it in their forms of law and order.

However, why do you ask if it were "God's hand?" Should this make a difference when it was God Himself giving the orders? " God Himself pronounced the sentence; by the divine direction the blasphemer was conducted outside the camp and stoned to death."

If God is directing directly, then I would say His hand is involved. God had a hand in the matter. God told the company exactly what to do. They followed His orders, and their obedience was righteous.

Your attempt to "contrast" this event with Jesus' offer of forgiveness to the woman caught in adultery is disingenuous. Instead of looking for why God might "contradict" Himself, why not find the congruity? After all, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever we are told. Malachi 3:6 tells us God does not change. Therefore, the same God who would forgive and who would execute justice and judgment would have both of these characteristics in righteousness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Green Cochoa] #152723
06/01/13 01:56 AM
06/01/13 01:56 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
However, why do you ask if it were "God's hand?" Should this make a difference when it was God Himself giving the orders?
Yes, it makes a difference. God did not want Israel to have a king. But Israel wanted a king. God gave Israel the best rules for having a king. God did not want Israel to fight its way into the promise land. God would have done is slowly, by the hornet as one method, a non-lethal method at that. But Israel did not want that, they wanted to fight their way in. God gave the best rules under the circumstances. God hates divorce. But God gave rules because of the hardness of the hearts of Israel. And as far as executing justice? God's wrath is letting the natural consequences of sin play out. God does not have to "execute" sinners, sin will do that just fine.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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