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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15243
08/12/05 07:15 PM
08/12/05 07:15 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom: I shouldn't be able to point out that a given argument is unreasonable or fallacious? Is this what you are saying? However, I cannot agree that this means I should not point out arguments which are in error. MM: You are free to post whatever you want to, but if you continue to post offensive comments I will simply stop studying with you. Tom: You consider a comment that points out an argument to be in error to be offensive? MM:If I post something that, in your opinion, you think is untrue or heresy, then I would prefer it if you would simply quote inspired statements that plainly say so, ones that do not rely on your private interpretation. Tom: I wasn't referring to statement which are in my opinion untrue or heresy. I was referring to statements you make using logic which is absurd, or unreasonable, or fallacious, or whatever an appropriate adjective would be. MM: However, telling me that you think my comments or arguments are unreasonable or ridiculous is totally unacceptable behaviour, in my opinion. And I will not tolerate it. Not because I’m thin-skinned, which I am, but because it pollutes the atmosphere. MSDAOL should be a safe and friendly place for members and visitors to read and study. Tom: I should be able to point out invalid arguments. This is not an unreasonable thing for me to be able to do. I am open to suggestions regarding how to do this. Old Tom: That's simply not true. MM: We do not agree on this point. Old Tom: This is evident by the fact that God was willing to pardon Lucifer/Satan without any blood being involved. MM: We do not agree on this point, either. Tom: quote:
God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission.(GC 496, 497)
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15244
08/12/05 10:31 PM
08/12/05 10:31 PM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
I should be able to point out invalid arguments. This is not an unreasonable thing for me to be able to do. I am open to suggestions regarding how to do this.
Whether an argument is invalid or not is a matter of opinion. I suggest that you stick with the facts rather than posting your opinion regarding positions you deem unfit or unworthy. In case you haven't noticed yet stating your opinion about my opinion is counterproductive. It basically stalls the study process. I find it insulting and condescending when you refer to the things I post as invalid or unreasonable. Simply post what you think is right. You can do this quite successfully without compromising your position.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15245
08/13/05 02:56 AM
08/13/05 02:56 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM: Whether an argument is invalid or not is a matter of opinion.
Tom: I disagree. Whether an argument is valid or not is not matter of opinion. It's something objective, not subjective. Arguments are subject to the rules of logic.
MM:I suggest that you stick with the facts rather than posting your opinion regarding positions you deem unfit or unworthy.
Tom: I have been dealing with facts. The rules of logic are facts. Arguments are invalid if the conclusions do not follow from their premises.
MM: In case you haven't noticed yet stating your opinion about my opinion is counterproductive.
It basically stalls the study process. I find it insulting and condescending when you refer to the things I post as invalid or unreasonable. Simply post what you think is right. You can do this quite successfully without compromising your position.
Tom: Are you suggesting I simply ignore it when you make invalid arguments as if you hadn't said anything?
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15246
08/14/05 02:52 AM
08/14/05 02:52 AM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 22,256
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quote:
MM: In case you haven't noticed yet stating your opinion about my opinion is counterproductive. It basically stalls the study process.
I find it insulting and condescending when you refer to the things I post as invalid or unreasonable.
Simply post what you think is right. You can do this quite successfully without compromising your position.
Tom: Are you suggesting I simply ignore it when you make invalid arguments as if you hadn't said anything?
What I am asking you to do is - Simply post what you think is right. You can do this quite successfully without compromising your position. You do not have to attack my position to prove your position. Just tell the truth and let the truth speak for itself. And then pray for me as if my life depends on it.
You are driving me away by attacking my position. Calling my views invalid, unreasonable, ridiculous, etc., isn't helping your case at all. Use your time and talent to present the truth in a winsome way, and that will do more to promote your position than attacking mine will ever do.
Do you understand what I am telling you?
quote:
"But the Saviour did not meet argument with argument. Raising His hand with solemn, quiet dignity, He pressed the truth home with greater assurance...." (DA 171)
"The way to dispel darkness is to admit light. The best way to deal with error is to present truth." (DA 498)
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15247
08/13/05 03:04 PM
08/13/05 03:04 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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"The best way to deal with error is ..."
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15248
08/13/05 03:07 PM
08/13/05 03:07 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15249
08/14/05 03:49 AM
08/14/05 03:49 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The topic of the thread is "Why did Jesus have to die?" The Scriptures present three basic reasons, as far as I can tell. The first is to bring us to God. Here are a couple of texts which deal with this theme: quote:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on F13 the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.(1 Pet. 2:24, 25)
8 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Pet. 3:18)
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind F3 by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col 1:19-21)
These deal with the theme of bringing us to God. The death of Christ brings us to God by healing the alienation of our minds. In the cross we see the truth about God's character, which heals and reconciles us.
quote:
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. (Heb. 2:14)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)
This second has to do with destroying the forces of vile. A third theme has to do with the cross revealing the love of God, but I'll leave these for now.
The text that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins has been cited, however this text does not help us in answering the question as to WHY Christ's death was necessary. To say that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin is equivalent to say that the death of Christ was necessary for our salvation. There's no doubt about that. The question is why.
The texts I have cited give reasons as to why Christ died. There are no texts from Scripture which suggest that Christ died in order to allow God to legally forgive us, or to appease His wrath.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15250
08/14/05 04:48 AM
08/14/05 04:48 AM
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OP
SDA
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Thank you for sharing your view so clearly. I shall be happy to let this be the last word. Unless you wish to continue studying it. However, you already know what I believe about it. Perhaps someone else would like to share what makes sense to them?
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15251
08/14/05 06:21 AM
08/14/05 06:21 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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OK, MM. I will accept your gracious offer to allow me last word. You never did point out any Scripture which supports your view, except for suggesting the verse in Hebrews which says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, which, as I pointed out, does not address the question as to why Christ died.
We can see if anyone else chooses to join in.
Thank you for posting this topic. I can think of no topic more important. The Spirit of Prophesy says that every truth of Scripture can only be understood in the light of the cross.
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