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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #152313
05/04/13 10:17 AM
05/04/13 10:17 AM
G
Gregory  Offline
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Quote:
You prove that scripture in the mouth of the unsanctified is used for evil.

* * * * *

God takes responsibility for creating Lucifer from which evil came from. For to use that text in the literal sense proves you do not know the righteousness of God Elle. Please repent of this evil that you cast on God.

* * * * *

Moses showed the greatest connection to God by taking responsibility for his people. Jesus took responsibility for us when He cried forgive them for they know not what they do.

Right now that is my cry for you.


James, I disagree with what Elle has said. I have more agreemenet with you as to what the Bible teaches. You are more correct, in my mind than Elle.

But, God has not given you the task of making the statements about Elle that you have made:

You do not have the moral right to suggest that Elle is unsanctified. To compare her to those who crucified Christ, as you did is not appropriate.

James, people can be wrong and honest and sincere.

Last edited by Gregory; 05/04/13 10:19 AM.

Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Gregory] #152316
05/04/13 01:40 PM
05/04/13 01:40 PM
APL  Offline
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jsot - HOW are the last plagues poured out? How do the angels harm the earth? How was Jerusalem destroyed? By active intervention of God? NO.

Revelation 7:1-2 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:

What is their power to hard? They stop doing what they are doing, which is holding back the winds. When they stop, the harm comes. To say that God is actively inflicting the harm of the last plagues, torturing sinners, when they have no hope for salvation, is calling God a tyrant, arbitrarily inflicting pain, for what purpose, but to punish.

Originally Posted By: egw
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: APL] #152319
05/04/13 02:22 PM
05/04/13 02:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, cancer cells are not self-acting. They would cease to function if Jesus ceased to employ them. This does not mean Jesus causes cancer. Ellen White is clear about it:

Quote:
God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will.


"Forever, O Lord,
Thy word is settled in heaven.
Thy faithfulness is unto all generations:
Thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.
They continue this day according to Thine ordinances:
For all are Thy servants."
"Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did He
In heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places."
"He commanded, and they were created.
He hath also established them for ever and ever:
He hath made a decree which shall not pass."
Psalm 119:89-91; 135:6; 148:5, 6. {MH 416.1}

It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain.


"He giveth snow like wool:
He scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes."


"When He uttereth His voice, there is a multitude of waters
in the heavens,
And He causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the
earth;
He maketh lightnings with rain,
And bringeth forth the wind out of His treasures."
Psalm 147:16; Jeremiah 10:13. {MH 416.2}

It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears, every flower blooms, every fruit develops. {MH 416.3}

The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. {MH 417.1}

Jesus permits evil angels to tamper with the laws of nature. Poison is the result of their amalgamation. But evil angels cannot create life. Nor can they give life to the laws of nature. Thus, their existence depends on Jesus for life. They would cease to function without His life-giving power. They are able to annoy and cause disease, disaster, and destruction because Jesus chooses to give them life and existence.

Quote:
Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge, which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this." [Matthew 13:27, 28.] All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {16MR 247.2}

Sometimes Jesus employs the evil results of Satan's amalgamations to serve His purposes. Most of the time Jesus permits cause and effect to run its normal course. However, germs, viruses, bacteria, etc are not self-acting. Again, they depend on Jesus for their existence and their activity. He does not sit back and allow things to happen without guidance and limitations. He sets limits and enforces them ensuring things play out according to His will. He is in control - not sin, not sickness, not man, not evil angels. Jesus doesn't force sinners to sin. He doesn't randomly make them sick. He does, however, manage the outcome of their choices.

Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Mountain Man] #152320
05/04/13 04:05 PM
05/04/13 04:05 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
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I am assailed by both sides of every argument, but if you could only see the results of what you say. There is a fine line between both sides of every argument. Our church is self destructing from men who think they know the truth but while there is no harmony in the church.

I don't why I even bother trying to help, I am not allowed to say what is shown me and I am censored on every side. I guarantee you not even half of why I say here makes on to this website. I doubt if they will even post this statement for me.

Shame on you guys. What do I say that is so offensive? You act like Satan trying to censoring what I say.

Does God censor what men say? You use the power you have to act like Satan under the pretense of acting for God.

In America we have the freedom of speech, I suppose Canadians don't have that luxury and feel as if you have the liberty to act like you do... But when a man is speaking that which he is inspired from God and another man in power censors what he says, who do really work for?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Mountain Man] #152322
05/04/13 04:07 PM
05/04/13 04:07 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Sometimes Jesus employs the evil results of Satan's amalgamations to serve His purposes. Most of the time Jesus permits cause and effect to run its normal course. However, germs, viruses, bacteria, etc are not self-acting. Again, they depend on Jesus for their existence and their activity. He does not sit back and allow things to happen without guidance and limitations. He sets limits and enforces them ensuring things play out according to His will. He is in control - not sin, not sickness, not man, not evil angels. Jesus doesn't force sinners to sin. He doesn't randomly make them sick. He does, however, manage the outcome of their choices.

I agree with MM (& EGW quotes) referring that nothing is self-acting. What you sum up in the quote above and other post concerning this-- we share the same understanding.

As you said this concept basically acknowledge the Sovereignty of the Lord over all things. Nothing is out of His control. He is not slaves to our decisions or the events and our consequences as if He needs to adjust His plan continually in respond to the unforeseen. This is making people decision and events Sovereign over the Lord and these controling the futur. His plan has been laid up since before creation and this plan has been given via the law and the Prophets. All events and role players (see-- Rom 9) will be fulfilled according to His plan and His choosing.

Eph 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."

Does the Lord Control Everything?
Freewill is another concept that needs to be understood Biblically. I know most of you if not all will oppose to this too, but the Bible says man has no freewill.

Man does have choices. This is one aspect which everyone confuse with freewill. Faced to an event, we have two or three choices at the most by which these available selection is controled by the Lord. Just as a father or teacher who gives a few choices to their children/student according to their maturity and understanding. The wrong choice brings on a "correction", "judgment", aka "shoool of hard knock". Sadly we often learn more from our mistakes than from making good decision.

Is 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Is 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.


Blessings
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Gregory] #152324
05/04/13 04:56 PM
05/04/13 04:56 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Gregory
Quote:
Bible : I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. | Isaiah 45:7

Here's a small sample of other texts about the relation of evil with the Lord.


So, the Bible says that God creats evil. You have established that. but, you have not addressed the question as to the meaning of the word "evil."

"Evil" may have a moral sense such as we usually attribute to Saten. It also may mean trouble that comes such as a fire that burns up ones home. The bottom line is that the Hebrew word used for "evil" in this verse has both meanings. So, which is the meaning that the Biblical writer intends to communicate?

As correctly cited above, God says: "I make peace, and create evil:. . ." That context, as I see it reminds me of conflict, which may be evil. (Some conflict is good.) "Peace" implies a lack of conflict, or war. In contrast to peace, God may create trouble which can be conflict or war.

Looking forward to Isaiah 47:11, you will see exactly this. In that verse, "evil" is described as trouble, which (see vs. 9) can be widowhood or loss of children.

NOTE: See also Amos 3:6. Here "evil" carries the meaning of clamity, affliction and/or judgement.

I'm glad you brought the Biblical definition of "evil". This important work is often lacking in personal studies and in discussion as individual have different definition of words. Most of our words definitions have Babylonians phylosophy and ways attach to it. And we read an English translated Bible with these incorrect definition which are not the Lords. This leads to misunderstanding of texts and more confusion. So the first work needed is to correct these wrong definition and replaced these with the Lords definition, ways and phylosophy. One effective way is to find the Hebrew or Greek word and look up most of their occurences in context from scripture to see the Lords true definition.

We are in agreement with the definition of evil. I have expressed this in the past when I brought this up in the quote below.
Originally Posted By: Post#134597
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=newreply&Board=40&Number=134597&what=showflat&fpart=11&q=1
God Creating Evil or Adversity

Quote:
NJK: (as kland rightly summarily remarked), ‘it’s all God’s deliberate fault’. It’s way too “bipolar” for me. I.e., God wants to eradicate evil but He is the one who is forcing it to occur??!

Elle: Whose really bipolar here? You put Evil and Good in two opposite spectrum. I have consolidated them according to what the Bible reveals. Evil and Good both comes from God! See Post #134434). read “Dualism problem with Good and Evil”

NJK: It may help you here to understand that the Hebrew word for evil can merely mean “adversity”. (cf. Post #134082). So God creating adversity to fulfill a purpose, as seen in His acts of judgement, is not actually “evil” as we extremely understand it.
Yes I agree that God created EVIL or as you worded it “adversity to fulfill a purpose”. However, the Hebrew word employed here is “ra” meaning bad or evil. It comes from the root word “ra’a” proper meaning is “to spoil” and figuratively means “to make good for nothing”, i.e. bad.

However, I have no problem using your definition for I have the same understanding of that text in Is 45 that God creates adversity.


Blessings
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Elle] #152333
05/05/13 01:26 AM
05/05/13 01:26 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, please stop trying to make this study about you. It's not about you - it's about Jesus and the truth. Stick with the facts. State the truth. Thank you.

Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Daryl] #152339
05/05/13 06:46 AM
05/05/13 06:46 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
No way Daryl, not unless God permitted it. ROFL


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #152347
05/05/13 01:26 PM
05/05/13 01:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Daryl, what did you say?

Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil? [Re: Mountain Man] #152352
05/05/13 05:45 PM
05/05/13 05:45 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, please stop trying to make this study about you. It's not about you - it's about Jesus and the truth. Stick with the facts. State the truth. Thank you.


Don't even direct anything you comment on towards me and I won't respond to your harassment. Thank you.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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