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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152725
06/01/13 02:05 AM
06/01/13 02:05 AM
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However, why do you ask if it were "God's hand?" Should this make a difference when it was God Himself giving the orders? Yes, it makes a difference. God did not want Israel to have a king. But Israel wanted a king. God gave Israel the best rules for having a king. God did not want Israel to fight its way into the promise land. God would have done is slowly, by the hornet as one method, a non-lethal method at that. But Israel did not want that, they wanted to fight their way in. God gave the best rules under the circumstances. God hates divorce. But God gave rules because of the hardness of the hearts of Israel. And as far as executing justice? God's wrath is letting the natural consequences of sin play out. God does not have to "execute" sinners, sin will do that just fine. Where is your text to say that "sin will execute sinners?" Do you have one? Please furnish it. Regarding the comparisons to King Saul, divorce, etc., they are not equal comparisons. We can compare apples to oranges all we want, but what we really need to do is to see the clear picture of what it is we are comparing, and know that the apple is an apple, and the orange is an orange. After we have ascertained this, then we may be able to go on to comparing apples with apples and oranges with oranges as appropriate. God did not ask Israel to ask for a king. The Israelites did not bring the matter first to God to see what He wanted them to do. They just went and did their own thing. Such was not the case with the situation Mrs. White speaks of regarding stoning the blasphemer. The people did not know what they should do. They did not just go ahead and do their own thing, stoning the man because they were filled with sinful anger. No, not at all. They went and asked for counsel from God. God Himself told them to stone the man. Would God ASK you to sin? Far from it! APL, until you realize the truth of the fact that God would never command you to sin, you will never understand this issue in its correct light. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152727
06/01/13 02:15 AM
06/01/13 02:15 AM
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Let's adjust the familiar text for some perspective:
"The wages of work is money." Now, does "work" pay the money itself? Or is there a Master who pays the wages? Who is in charge? The "work" or the "master?"
If I commit "sin," does or can my transgression of the law, as if it were an animate or sentient being, inflict punishment upon me of itself? It can no more do so than my act of having done some work suddenly place money in my hand.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152728
06/01/13 02:40 AM
06/01/13 02:40 AM
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Here is another quotation from Mrs. White which clearly joins the mercy and justice of God as inextricably linked. She goes so far here as to clarify that when God's judgment and justice are removed from our Gospel message, that the message is weakened and lowered to a point where many may even cast aside its truths. “Affiliated to the dangers already named is the danger of underestimating the justice of God. The tendency of the modern pulpit is to strain out the divine justice from the divine benevolence, to sink benevolence into a sentiment rather than exalt it into a principle. The new theological prism puts asunder what God has joined together. Is the divine law a good or an evil? It is a good. Then justice is good; for it is a disposition to execute the law. From the habit of underrating the divine law and justice, the extent and demerit of human disobedience, men easily slide into the habit of underestimating the grace which has provided an atonement for sin.” Thus the gospel loses its value and importance in the minds of men, and soon they are ready to practically cast aside the Bible itself. {GC88 465.3} Those are some serious thoughts for consideration. Those who uphold both parts of the truth: the mercy and the justice of God; are those who promote the truth most fully. Truth should not be slighted nor despised. We must not look down on any part of truth just because it might seem less agreeable to us. God has told us not to underestimate His justice. Why, then, do we do so? Is it not because we wish to feel that there will remain no reckoning for the sinful deeds we have done? Are we not fleeing a guilty conscience by consoling ourselves with the false notion that God will not one day bring us into judgment for our every thought and deed? God is not evil. Neither is it evil for God to be just and to execute His righteous judgments upon sinners. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152729
06/01/13 02:41 AM
06/01/13 02:41 AM
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Where is your text to say that "sin will execute sinners?" Do you have one? Please furnish it. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die. James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. Is James saying, when sin is full, God will kill you? Nope. Regarding the comparisons to King Saul, divorce, etc., they are not equal comparisons. We can compare apples to oranges all we want, but what we really need to do is to see the clear picture of what it is we are comparing, and know that the apple is an apple, and the orange is an orange. After we have ascertained this, then we may be able to go on to comparing apples with apples and oranges with oranges as appropriate. We are comparing methods, thus the comparison if valid. God did not ask Israel to ask for a king. The Israelites did not bring the matter first to God to see what He wanted them to do. They just went and did their own thing. Such was not the case with the situation Mrs. White speaks of regarding stoning the blasphemer. The people did not know what they should do. They did not just go ahead and do their own thing, stoning the man because they were filled with sinful anger. No, not at all. They went and asked for counsel from God. God Himself told them to stone the man. God also gave council on how best to fight. But is that what God wanted? Nope. The confusion comes in when you compare how the government of Israel compares with the government of God. All civil governments in this fallen world use force to make its citizens to keep its laws. God's government is not of this nature. So you can never compare earthly governments with God's kingdom on a one-to-one basis. Earthly governments prevail by physical force; they maintain their dominion by war; but the founder of the new kingdom is the Prince of Peace. The Holy Spirit represents worldly kingdoms under the symbol of fierce beasts of prey; but Christ is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. In His plan of government there is no employment of brute force to compel the conscience. The Jews looked for the kingdom of God to be established in the same way as the kingdoms of the world. To promote righteousness they resorted to external measures. They devised methods and plans. But Christ implants a principle. By implanting truth and righteousness, He counterworks error and sin. {COL 77.1} Those looking for God to employ brute force to enforce His laws, are repeating the error of Israel.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152730
06/01/13 02:45 AM
06/01/13 02:45 AM
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Where is your text to say that "sin will execute sinners?" Do you have one? Please furnish it. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die. James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. Is James saying, when sin is full, God will kill you? Nope. Regarding the comparisons to King Saul, divorce, etc., they are not equal comparisons. We can compare apples to oranges all we want, but what we really need to do is to see the clear picture of what it is we are comparing, and know that the apple is an apple, and the orange is an orange. After we have ascertained this, then we may be able to go on to comparing apples with apples and oranges with oranges as appropriate. We are comparing methods, thus the comparison if valid. God did not ask Israel to ask for a king. The Israelites did not bring the matter first to God to see what He wanted them to do. They just went and did their own thing. Such was not the case with the situation Mrs. White speaks of regarding stoning the blasphemer. The people did not know what they should do. They did not just go ahead and do their own thing, stoning the man because they were filled with sinful anger. No, not at all. They went and asked for counsel from God. God Himself told them to stone the man. God also gave council on how best to fight. But is that what God wanted? Nope. The confusion comes in when you compare how the government of Israel compares with the government of God. All civil governments in this fallen world use force to make its citizens to keep its laws. God's government is not of this nature. So you can never compare earthly governments with God's kingdom on a one-to-one basis. Earthly governments prevail by physical force; they maintain their dominion by war; but the founder of the new kingdom is the Prince of Peace. The Holy Spirit represents worldly kingdoms under the symbol of fierce beasts of prey; but Christ is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. In His plan of government there is no employment of brute force to compel the conscience. The Jews looked for the kingdom of God to be established in the same way as the kingdoms of the world. To promote righteousness they resorted to external measures. They devised methods and plans. But Christ implants a principle. By implanting truth and righteousness, He counterworks error and sin. {COL 77.1} Those looking for God to employ brute force to enforce His laws, are repeating the error of Israel. APL, I don't have the language of heaven to use to communicate to you the truths you are missing. I know not what further I can say. God's honor is at stake here. God has said He will execute justice and judgment, and that we should not underestimate these. Are you upholding God's honor? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152732
06/01/13 02:53 AM
06/01/13 02:53 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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"The wages of work is money." Now, does "work" pay the money itself? Or is there a Master who pays the wages? Who is in charge? The "work" or the "master?"
If I commit "sin," does or can my transgression of the law, as if it were an animate or sentient being, inflict punishment upon me of itself? It can no more do so than my act of having done some work suddenly place money in my hand. Do you really believe what you just said? Does this mean, when you transgress, that God has to come down, and personally inflict the punishment for that transgression? Really? I don't like your god. How many EGW quotes would you like? I have many. It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression. Many are suffering in consequence of the transgression of their parents. They cannot be censured for their parents' sin; but it is nevertheless their duty to ascertain wherein their parents violated the laws of their being, which has entailed upon their offspring so miserable an inheritance; and wherein their parents' habits were wrong, they should change their course, and place themselves by correct habits in a better relation to health. {CH 37.2} Hm - God must have come down and inflicted this punishment. Even the inherited effects. suffering is the result of sin. According to Green it is not! Suffering is inflicted by God. Like the leper, this paralytic had lost all hope of recovery. His disease was the result of a life of sin, and his sufferings were embittered by remorse. {DA 267.2} According to green, disease is inflicted by God for transgression of the law (sin) for sin can't pay its own wage. Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator Hm - I guess the suffering that the Creator incured was self-inflicted. The physician should teach his patients that they are to cooperate with God in the work of restoration. The physician has a continually increasing realization of the fact that disease is the result of sin. He knows that the laws of nature, as truly as the precepts of the Decalogue, are divine, and that only in obedience to them can health be recovered or preserved. He sees many suffering as the result of hurtful practices who might be restored to health if they would do what they might for their own restoration. They need to be taught that every practice which destroys the physical, mental, or spiritual energies is sin, and that health is to be secured through obedience to the laws that God has established for the good of all mankind. {MH 113.6} Hm, according to green, disease is inflicted by God for transgressing His law. It is not a natural consequence.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152733
06/01/13 03:02 AM
06/01/13 03:02 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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APL,
I don't have the language of heaven to use to communicate to you the truths you are missing. I know not what further I can say.
God's honor is at stake here. God has said He will execute justice and judgment, and that we should not underestimate these. Are you upholding God's honor? My question to you is, are you???? The only reason sin is so bad is because it is breaking God's rules. Nothing would happen to the sinner, except God gets mad and then inflicts punishment on the sinner. Nothing could be farther from the true. Sin is awful. Why? Because it destroys what God has made. That is the fact. All pain, all suffering, all disease, all death, ALL DEATH, all broken relationships and strife, are caused by sin. These things are NOT caused by God. None of them! That is why sin is so bad. Jesus said, "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". John 14:9. God is exactly like Jesus. Did Jesus ever do that things you say God will do? Nope. I will remind you that All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152736
06/01/13 03:14 AM
06/01/13 03:14 AM
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Man has not been made a sin-bearer, and he will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Saviour bore. No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. If Jesus felt the "overwhelming force" of "the wrath of God," how can we say that God does not "force?" Context is very important. When we are told that God does not force, it is in the context of man's free choice. God will never force the will, the conscience, or the choice of any of His subjects. This does not mean, however, that God is not in charge of their fate or even of their circumstances at times. Look at Jonah. I don't think it was Jonah's wish to be entombed in the belly of a whale for three days and nights! And what about Pharaoh's army which pursued the Israelites to the Red Sea? I don't think it was their wish or choice to be engulfed in its waters and drowned! Did God "force" them? Their choice, no. Their fate, yes. There is a decided difference between these two. Jesus died in great agony on the cross. Most of that agony was not the physical side. In fact, even the soldiers were surprised at how quickly He had expired. What killed Him? We are told that God's wrath was placed upon Him as our Sin-bearer. Why should we choose to believe that Jesus had a pleasant or comfortable, "loving-grace-filled" death such as would befit God's mercy, love, and benevolence? Would this not dramatically water-down the truth of the Gospel and make it seem less attractive to those in the world who are truly suffering under the weight of sin? How should they be led to believe in a God who never experienced what they feel? Nay, but Jesus drank the cup to its bitterest dregs. And we, by His amazing and incomprehensible sacrifice of love, may be rescued from sin and restored to perfect freedom from sin's taints, standing "forgiven" in the sight of God in place of executed for our sins. God's law is still in force. The standard of holiness is the same today as in the days of the apostles. Neither the promises nor the requirements of God have lost aught of their force. But what is the state of the Lord's professed people as compared with the early church? Where is the Spirit and power of God which then attended the preaching of the gospel? Alas, "how is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed!" {5T 240.1} God's law is still in force today as much as ever. If "force" were to be interpreted as some would have it, then there is no such thing as a requirement of God. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152740
06/01/13 03:25 AM
06/01/13 03:25 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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God will never force the will, the conscience, or the choice of any of His subjects. God will never force the conscience or will. But you are saying that either you love God, or He will kill you! "No force, no coercion, but if you do not love me (God speaking), I will kill you. In fact, I will torture you, but only as long as you deserve." Green - I don't know this kind of god. That is not the God I worship.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152758
06/01/13 07:03 AM
06/01/13 07:03 AM
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God will never force the will, the conscience, or the choice of any of His subjects. God will never force the conscience or will. But you are saying that either you love God, or He will kill you! "No force, no coercion, but if you do not love me (God speaking), I will kill you. In fact, I will torture you, but only as long as you deserve." Green - I don't know this kind of god. That is not the God I worship. Perhaps you do not yet know well the God you worship. I would not use the term "torture" as flippantly as you have here. However, going by your earlier quote that "all that man can know...," let's have a look at one of Jesus' parables and see if we can see something about this there. It's in Matthew 18. 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Jesus didn't use the word "torture." He did use the word "torment." There may be some important differences between the two. "Torture" usually is inflicted upon someone who does not deserve it. That is, at least, the typical English usage. However, we do not see that word used here. In fact, the man deserves all that he gets in this parable. Furthermore, God had forgiven the man, but then rescinds the forgiveness. That is interesting. Jesus said, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." So, for your own sake, if anything I've said here has you upset, forgive me.  If you don't...yes, there is judgment coming according to Jesus' own words. And Jesus is the God I always desire to serve. I want never to serve any other. His Father is like Him, according to what He taught His disciples. "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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