and how did it come about. We have the following to use as base for this discussion...

Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment.—Fundamental Beliefs, 7

Adam's descendants share the sinfulness of his nature. In prayer, David said, "In Your sight no one living is righteous" (Ps. 143:2; cf. 14:3). "'There is no one who does not sin'" (1 Kings 8:46). And Solomon said, "Who can say, 'I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin'?" (Prov. 20:9); "There is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin" (Eccl. 7:20). Job exclaims, "'Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!'" (Job. 14:4). David said, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5). The New Testament is equally clear, stating that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) and that "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). And Paul stated that "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7, 8).

So if man, though created perfect and in God's image, and placed in a perfect environment, through Adam and Eve became transgressors of Gods Law and inherited sin, how did Jesus who became fully flesh, not have sin at birth.

At what point in our lives do we need Jesus' death on the cross to cover us? In other words, do newborns who die before committing acts of sin inherit eternal life on the basis of their innocence or on the basis of Jesus substitutionary death on their behalf? Had Jesus failed in His mission, would infants who died before sinning still inherit eternal life, or be lost with those whose sin, on the part of Jesus' hypothetical failure, could never be covered?

Do not ALL human beings need salvation? ALL?

The answer is obvious, I think. However, the implications of that answer are the main reason I cannot subscribe to the idea that Jesus was born with a sinful humanity if what is meant by that is that He possessed self-originating temptations to sin. If he, in His infancy, was just like every other human being as far as being predisposed to disobedience at birth, then either such a condition is exempt from the penalty of sin, or Jesus must have been exceptional in His innate humanity. Otherwise, He would need a savior.

Jesus took on our sinful condition.
Isaiah 53:3-4 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.

He literally bore our sickness.

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

The fact Jesus did not sin during the age of non-accountability is a mystery left unexplained.


The expression "the force of all temptations wherewith man is beset" must necessarily include "the clamors of our fallen nature."


Jesus passed over the same "ground". That is, He was tempted from within in the same way we are.

The problem is that people construe these quotes to mean that Jesus was born with an inclination to rebellion. When clear statements to the opposite are brought up, then fabricated ideas such as the "higher-lower nature" arguments are brought in.

The issue is not whether Jesus had a pre- or post-fall humanity. It was post fall because, holistically speaking, the humanity He lived in had tremendous circumstantial disadvantages (what we blame when we sin) to what Adam in his unfallen state had. But to say that Jesus had innate, self-generated inclinations to sin is treading on ground which Sister White has warned us against treading on.

Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2, pp. 508, 509:

Now lets look at the following.......

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

How do you read these verses......

Jesus had no advantage over us, otherwise we would have an excuse.

"He who triumphed over the adversary of souls in the wilderness of temptation, understands what the Christian has to meet; for he has conquered the enemy in our behalf, and as an overcomer, he has given us the advantage of his victory, that we may be able to resist the temptations of the evil one." {RH, September 23, 1890 par. 1}

Jesus was an "overcomer".

What does it mean to you that He had a "post fall" nature?

Well there is no advantage if we have the same power to fill and sanctify and help us overcome, and we do...

John 3
King James Version (KJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Whether it happens at the womb or after you are born, we have the same power available to us. Thus Christ had no advantage..

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

And note the words in both John 3 and 1 Peter 1, being "born again", not of corruptible "seed", but incorruptible. And contrast that with Genesis 3:14-18.

Of course if Jesus had failed, then do you think any one would be born? Do you think there would "be" anyone? Not sure the hypothetical question could possibly have a hypothetical answer.

"Jesus' death on the cross" covers us? What? How does that happen? It does not. That might be true if we are in legal trouble. But we are not in legal trouble. We are in real trouble.

"The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters."--Letter 406, 1906. {7ABC 464.2}

We must be born again. If Christ' death "covers us", then legally everyone is "off the hook". No need to be "born again". But that is not the case.

His Father was ... different from everyone else's.

That takes care of half of the issue. And knowing how mobile genetic elements move, that half would have been fully "infected" by the time He was born.

No, I strongly disagree, God is our Father also. Christ made that clear, and we are His children, so Christ was no different in that respect. Now, God in His great wisdom chooses as he pleases, and when the Holy Spirit comes and fills and makes strong even from the womb, who are we to question it.


Romans 11:33-34
King James Version (KJV)
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

I strongly disagree with your disagreement.

John 8:39-47 is pretty clear that we do the deeds of our father. And remembering the days of my youth, and hearing the stories of my exploits as an infant and toddler, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that God was not my father. At least not for a significant portion of my life.

It is not correct to say, as many writers have said, that Christ was like all children. He was not like all children. Many children are misguided and mismanaged. But Joseph, and especially Mary, kept before them the remembrance of their child's divine Fatherhood. Jesus was instructed in accordance with the sacred character of His mission. His inclination to right was a constant gratification to His parents. {SD 134.3}

He talked and acted like other children and youth, except that He did no wrong. Sin found no place in His life. Ever He lived in an atmosphere of heavenly purity. . . . {TMK 30.4}

You may have had a vastly more positive experience, but I can say with certainty that Jesus was different from me.

Plus, how many virgin births have there been? How many people have come into existence without the benefit of a human father and mother? I can only think of 3.

By being born again we too can have the same 'inclination to right' and 'live in an atmosphere of heavenly purity', that is the key. Yet we don't ask for the transformation of the Holy Spirit, we don't seek the rebirth of the Spirit, we are too content to know about the 'theory' and don't put into action the 'gift' that we have available to be born again and be like Christ. Christ had the advantage from birth that we can also have and that is where we must choose just like Nicodemus..

Having sinful flesh is not the same as acting out its unholy desires. So long as we abide in Jesus and rely on Him to recognize and resist it we are more than conquerors. Jesus always resisted the unholy clamorings of His sinful flesh nature. He never gave in to it.

Thus Jesus is our example and we can also overcome.

So you believe Jesus was born born again?

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 2:14-18 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

1 John 3:9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God sins not; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned love of the brothers, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and stays for ever.

Christ was born with sinful flesh. He purges the sin, He destroyed the works of the devil. He was born again, but He and only He, did it Himself. He is now our faithful high priest, who is able to succor us because He went through it Himself. He knows how to do it. And this is the Biblical definition of grace! Isaiah 53:11; Titus 3:5-7.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Does this mean Yes?

Read the scripture verses. What do they say?

Like I said already, the KJV mistranslates Hebrews 2:16. Beside this, there is nothing in the text that says that Jesus was born with sinful propensities. But if you want to take the KJV as it reads in v. 16, consider these texts:

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one


Being of the "seed of Abraham" is not something that pre-dispositions someone to sin, but is actually the opposite.

Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, “in all points tempted like as we are;” but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. 47 {CSA 26.5}

The Refined Sensibilities of Jesus—Would that we could comprehend the significance of the words, Christ “suffered being tempted.” While He was free from the taint of sin, the refined sensibilities of His holy nature rendered contact with evil unspeakably painful to Him. Yet with human nature upon Him, He met the archapostate face to face, and single-handed withstood the foe of His throne. Not even by a thought could Christ be brought to yield to the power of temptation. {7BC 927.4}
Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself, “The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.” The storms of temptation burst upon Him, but they could not cause Him to swerve from His allegiance to God (The Review and Herald, November 8, 1887). {7BC 927.5}

Being born with a sinless nature exposed Jesus to a level of temptation above what we are exposed to until we have our natures transformed. Jesus did not have the luxury of indifference to that which we are tempted to indulge in (or pass judgement on those who indulge in). While Mary Magdalene's previous occupation may have aroused lustful desires or judgmental thoughts of other men, for Jesus, her condition caused deep soul anguish. His whole life, Jesus was under no obligation to live in an environment that was torture to Him. Jesus temptation was not about enjoying the perverse pleasures of sin, but about loving people less. Tempted in all points? Of course. He felt hunger more severe than we can imagine, but had to with on His Father to satisfy it. That doesn't mean He wanted to eat a pork chop or down a cup of coffee. He felt exceptional weariness, but that doesn't mean he wanted to smack on of His disciples upside the head the way some people use that excuse to shake a baby. But He did have a desire to take care of a legitimate need to rest in the place of meeting the needs of others. Not sinful in the perverse sort of way we are. He was tempted to do good that was not necessarily part of His Father's immediate plans. His temptations were subtle, and on all points, but never did He have an inborn attraction to sin for sin's sake. We are born that way.

I don't think anyone has said that Jesus had the propensity to sin.

What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition [what deteriorated it? SIN]. {16MR 115.3}

There was not a drop of bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of the curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {16MR 116.1}

By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin [the fallen nature]. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." [He bore our sin in His body] He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot [never participated in out sin]. {16MR 116.3}

The people of God should awaken to a keen perception of the grievous character of transgression. Sin is disguised, and many are deceived in regard to its nature [this should give us pause to think]. Satan has planned it thus, that the understanding may be clouded, the spiritual vision obscured, the perceptive faculties of the soul blunted. But God would not have one of us to be ensnared, therefore the nature of sin is faithfully portrayed in the inspired pages,--its offensive character before God, its corruption, its shame, and its results. Everything has been done that God could do to save man from the power of sin, which defaces the divine image, frustrates God's purpose in man's existence, degrades his God-given powers, narrows his capacity, leads to unholy imaginations, and gives loose rein to unsanctified passions. Sin! how hateful in the sight of God! Holy angels look upon it with abhorrence. {RH, June 3, 1880 par. 9}

Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience [we are born that way - it is genetic!]. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}

Hebrews 1:3 ...when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: [purge our sin? Are our sins purged? NO. He purged our sins out of his own body - this is the plan of redemption]

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me. [there was nothing left in Him that the devil could use, he could not be tempted, he was destroying the works of the devil]

I read in the SOP that from the womb the Holy Spirit came upon/filled Christ and I am trying to find that quote and at the same time see what scripture gives us. That is why I think this text gives us a understanding of how this could be...

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

and if John was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb..

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

and John the Baptist himself recognized one greater than him and said that Christ should be baptizing him...

Matthew 3
King James Version (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

then how could Christ not be filled with the Holy Spirit from birth...

Luke 1
King James Version (KJV)
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

When we are born again/born of the spirit is moot as I understand it, as long as it does happen is the crux of the matter, whether at the womb or later in life as per Nicodemus.

I don't think there's a quote that says that. There is one for John the Baptist.

I was with a pastor at his house discussing the nature of Christ and he pulled out SOP to make a point and read it. I went and asked him later which book and page and neither of us could remember so I am checking.

But let us keep in mind that this is not exactly germane to the original question.


We started with man who became transgressors "through Adam and Eve." Then the question is how Jesus became flesh yet avoided having sin at birth.

Then it went to:

There was a switch from "sin at birth" to "being born again." They may seem similar, but they are two very different events.

At birth, we are children of the First Adam. At rebirth, we are children of the Second Adam. The paternity is very different, and is what determines the difference between the living and the dead.

Furthermore, being filled with the Spirit does not preclude being born with sin. See John the Baptist.

I don’t see anything implying a new birth in the womb.

You said: << “Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience” [we are born that way - it is genetic!].>>
Ok, we are born that way. But was Christ born that way or not? If, as you said, Jesus didn't have the propensity to sin, He wasn't born with the propensity to sin, like us. Is this your view?

What binds it together is the Holy Spirit, the sanctification and transformation is through it.

Did I say "in the womb"? Where did that come from?

Adam's posterity - yes. Who was Jesus's father? Who was Him mother?

What is the nature of sin?

Sin is selfishness. It is more a characteristic than an act.

Certainly the Holy Spirit is involved in all this. But to be born without sin is a different matter from being reborn to be separated from sin.

No, because when we are born again, we have the same power to be transformed to be dead to sin in the path to sanctification, at what point the Holy Spirit is involved is moot as the end result is the same. We see from Desire of Ages that Christ did not use anything that was not available to us...


'..Since Jesus came to dwell with us, we know that God is acquainted with our trials, and sympathizes with our griefs. Every son and daughter of Adam may understand that our Creator is the friend of sinners. For in every doctrine of grace, every promise of joy, every deed of love, every divine attraction presented in the Saviour's life on earth, we see "God with us."

Satan represents God's law of love as a law of selfishness. He declares that it is impossible for us to obey its precepts. The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Heb. 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God...24

and from our level...
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life...49'

Speaking of Christ's incarnation, this is the only time I can think of for a new birth. If not at this time, when? (Bearing in mind human beings are born in sin.)

The quote you posted says:

Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. ... not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. {13MR 18.1}

1) We are born with evil propensities.
2) Not for a moment (not even at birth) was there in him an evil propensity.
3) Bear also in mind that we still have evil propensities after the new birth.

The "only definition of sin":


"Sin is the transgression of the law." This is the only definition of sin in the entire Bible. Sin, therefore, is not a state of being. We are not sin. Sin is a state of doing. Sinning requires choice and behavior (which includes thoughts). We must choose to cherish or act out tempting unholy thoughts and feelings to be guilty of sinning. However, all temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. Consequently, we must discern the difference between being tempted and being guilty. If we immediately recognize and resist tempting unholy thoughts and feelings we incur no guilt or condemnation. We are more than conquerors. Of course, we must abide in Jesus and trust the Holy Spirit to empower us to use our facilities of mind and body to successfully resist temptations unto God's honor and glory. Thank you, Jesus!

You are right - selfishness is a characteristic.

Leaves are green, that is a characteristic. Leave produce sugars by photosynthesis, that is an act. Both being green and producing sugar do not describe nature of the leaf.

What is the nature of sin?

OK - What law? How it is transgressed? How does transgression of this law cause all the illness and death in both man, animals and plants?

Therefore, a newborn baby is completely sin free. Being sin free, they should be disease free. Is this the case?

How is it that the transgression brings the curse upon the earth itself? Particularly if sin is only a thought? How is it the transgression becomes universal? How is it that disease is contracted from eating animals, is all disease is caused by sin, and sin is only a thought pattern?

You have now gotten too abstract for my understanding. And repeating the same question ad infinitum will not help me.

Sin is incongruence with God's character. If you want something more exotic than that, I'll leave it to others to fill your need.

I repeat the question because you have not provided an answer. And that is the point! The nature of sin has been obscured by the evil one. Sin not only affects humans, but all nature. Therefore, it can not be just a thought process on the part of humans.

Let's consider that. John the Baptist was born filled with the Spirit. Was he in the same condition as Jesus was at birth? Were they equally holy?

That is a very good question. Would you say John also was born with all the affects of sin, when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. So then you have to decide what affect being filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb had.

Man is not "sinful", full of sin. EGW is clear that Jesus took on our sinful nature, but never "participated" in its sin. Isaiah 53 and Matthews 8:17 says He took on our sickness. Jesus was born with sin, was tempted as we are, but never "participated" in our sin.

One should read the whole chapter by AT Jones where the excerpt above is taken. It is very clear that sin is in our nature, it is real and physical, and Jesus took on that nature, and cured it in Himself, Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 2:14-16; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Great questions. "All have sinned." Which necessarily includes infants. They are by nature sinners. "We all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

"Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." Defects and disease result in consequence of sin but not necessarily in consequence of sinning.

Sin is in the genetics - it has to be, or this statement by AT Jones is a false statement.

I agree. ALL disease is caused by sin. All disease is not caused by personal sinning. Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

So there is no unconscious sin? And what do you make of passages like the following ones?

God did not on this occasion pronounce judgments upon those whose wicked course had so provoked Moses and Aaron. All the reproof fell upon the leaders. Those who stood as God's representatives had not honored Him. Moses and Aaron had felt themselves aggrieved, losing sight of the fact that the murmuring of the people was not against them but against God. It was by looking to themselves, appealing to their own sympathies, that they unconsciously fell into sin, and failed to set before the people their great guilt before God. {PP 418.3}

That which looked very wrong to them at first, gradually loses this appearance by being constantly before them, till finally they question whether it is really sin and unconsciously fall into the same error. {4T 146.1}

God's servants have wept and prayed over the lukewarm state of the church. Some may arouse, but only to fall back into unconsciousness of their sin and peril. (RH, Nov. 2, 1886)

For want of this Bible sanctification, the soul of many a professed Christian has become a desecrated shrine, the haunt of hollow formalism, of selfishness and hypocrisy, pride and passion. Thousands are living on in guilty unconsciousness of their sin and danger, despising the Saviour's warnings, treating his ambassadors with contempt, and their words as idle tales. (ST, March 16, 1886)

One can be a transgressor of God's law without knowing it or realizing it, and "sin is the transgression of the law."

By asking the same question again, do you expect a different answer? Since I didn't provide the answer you wanted the first time, do you think asking the exact same thing again will yield the answer you seek?


You conflate sin with its effects. Maybe the nature of sin has been obscured from you.

It's possible, even probable, that Jones was not infallible. If your position is founded on Jones being correct, you should seek a stronger foundation.

That's right. If sin required knowledge, the best way to help people be sinless is to keep quiet about the gospel.

We actually don't have to determine every detail. Just look at the total package and compare.

Jesus: divine Father, mother was favored by heaven, virgin birth

John: father doubted angel's promise, born filled with the Spirit

Were they equally holy? Could they equally have been referred to as the Holy One of Israel?

Jones in his time was reviewed by EGW. If you have doubts, you best have better evidence against him, for even EGW spoke of the hereditary nature of sin. It is interesting that you attack the man, and not his arguments.

YOu make my point again.

He who was in the form of God took the form of man.

He who was equal with God became equal with man.

He who was Creator and Lord became creature and servant.

He who was in the likeness of God was made in the likeness of men.

He who was God and Spirit was made man and flesh. John 1:1; John 1:14.

Nor is this true only as to form; it is true as to substance. For Christ was like God in the sense of being of the nature, in very substance, of God. He was made in the likeness of men in the sense of being like men in the nature and very substance of men.

Christ was God. He became man. And when He became man, He was man as really as He was God.

He came to man where man is to bring man to Him where He was and is.

And in order to redeem man from what man is, He was made what man is:--

Man is flesh. Genesis 6:3; John 3:6. "And the Word was made flesh." John 1:14; Hebrews 2:14.

Man is under the law. Romans 3:19. Christ was "made under the law." Galatians 4:4.

Man is under the curse. Galatians 3:10; Zechariah 5:1-4, "Christ was made a curse." Galatians 3:13.

Man is sold under sin (Romans 7:14) and laden with iniquity. Isaiah 1:4. And "the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6.

Man is "a body of sin." Romans 6:6. And God "hath made Him to be sin." 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Thus, literally, "in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren."

Yet it must never be forgotten, it must be borne in mind and heart constantly and forever, that in none of this as to man, the flesh, sin, and the curse was Christ ever of Himself or of His own original nature or fault. All this He "was made." "He took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."

And in all this Christ was "made" what, before, He was not in order that the man might be made now and forever what he is not.

Christ was the Son of God. He became the Son of man that the sons of men might become the sons of God. Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:1.

Christ was Spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45. He became flesh in order that man, who is flesh, might become spirit. John 3:6; Romans 8:8-10.

Christ, who was altogether of the divine nature, was made partaker of human nature in order that we who are altogether of the human nature "might be partakers of the divine nature." 2 Peter 1:4.

Christ, who knew no sin, was made to be sin, even the sinfulness of man, in order that we, who knew no righteousness, might be made righteousness, even the righteousness of God.

And as the righteousness of God, which, in Christ, the man is made, is real righteousness, so the sin of men, which Christ was made in the flesh, was real sin.

As certainly as our sins, when upon us, are real sins to us, so certainly, when these sins were laid upon Him, they became real sins to Him.

I don't have problem with the hereditary nature of sin, as evidenced by my many posts here. I do have a problem with taking A.T. Jones as authoritative.

Glad to be of service.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Was Jesus born under grace?

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

John and Jesus were born after the human race had been weakened by 4000 years of sin. That's pretty weak.

You and I were born after the human race had been weakened by 6000 years of sin. Jesus had 2000 years less weakness, a significant amount. Does that make Him any less able to help us with our temptations?

Define grace.

Great. Then if it is inherited, it is in the DNA.

Interesting. Do you discount everything that he wrote then?

The closer to 1888, the more trustworthy, IMO. But it's never 100%. Therefore, everything needs corroboration.

My cousin inherited money from her father. There are ways to inherit things not through DNA.

Money inheritance is a legal issue. Is sin a legal issue? Is disease caused by legal violations? I don't think so. And I don't think that EGW was thinking legal either. Do you???Was she speaking of a legal inheritance? Nope.

You completely missed the point. Let me clarifyt: just because you inherit something doesn't necessarily mean it was through DNA. Your fallacy is that since we inherit characteristics through DNA, it is necessarily true that we inherit ALL characteristics through DNA. One example is sufficient to disprove your premise.

The root of it is pride. You think that you know all there is to know about heredity. It is possible that you don't, especially since your "sin is in the DNA" theory can't account for how sin entered into the world through Adam but managed to infect the entire planet.

Grace is that which God offers to undeserving sinners to turn them into righteous saints.

But the point is that while the man of Rom 6:14 is not under law, Jesus was born under law. Whatever condition Jesus was in at birth, it was not the same as the man of Rom 6:14, who is not under the dominion of sin.

I guess I have to find the section we were reading on the SOP to get to the heart of the matter, but look at the following as it clearly shows what the affects of the Holy Ghost are, and sanctification is from the Holy Ghost.....

'...True sanctification is a Bible doctrine. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonian church, declares, “This is the will of God, even your sanctification.” And he prays, “The very God of peace sanctify you wholly.” [1 Thessalonians 4:3; 5:23.] The Bible clearly teaches what sanctification is, and how it is to be attained. The Saviour prayed for his disciples, “Sanctify them through thy truth; thy Word is truth.” [John 17:17, 19.] And Paul teaches that believers are to be “sanctified by the Holy Ghost.” [Romans 15:16.] What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Jesus told his disciples, “When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.” [John 16:13.] And the psalmist says, “Thy law is the truth.” By the Word and the Spirit of God are opened to men the great principles of righteousness embodied in his law. And since the law of God is “holy, and just, and good,” a transcript of the divine perfection, it follows that a character formed by obedience to that law will be holy. Christ is a perfect example of such a character. He says, “I have kept my Father’s commandments.” “I do always those things that please him.” [John 15:10; 8:29.] The followers of Christ are to become like him,—by the grace of God, to form characters in harmony with the principles of his holy law. This is Bible sanctification.

This work can be accomplished only through faith in Christ, by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God'...The Great Controversy 1888, Page 469

http://text.egwwritings.org/publication....mp;resultId=165

So if from the womb that would explain how Christ had no propensities to sin, and yet this power is available to us, but do we partake of it. That is the question.

Offers what and how? Hint: Isaiah 53:11; Titus 3:5-7.

I see that you don't have a definition of grace. You confuse grace with its method of delivery and its effects. Conflation again.

It is certainly crucial that we avail of His grace. If we don't, we are lost.

However, let's not confuse what He gives us and what He is. We will never be "little" Christs.

Consider John again. He was filled with the Spirit from the womb. Was he qualified to be the Christ, the Savior of sinners?

Let's take it down a few notches. Having started out filled with the Spirit, was it possible for John to avoid being tainted with sin his entire life, as Jesus did, and stand uncondemned by the requirements of the law, without the benefit of Christ's blood?

Let's take it down some more. Did John have propensities to sin?

No definition of grace, and I provided that best one I know from scripture itself and you provide nothing for your side. Very interesting indeed.

I would agree with your diagnosis here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Your example fails and is a confusion of terms. If I inherit disease from my ancestors, is that a legal problem? Nope. Have you already forgotten the quote from Desire of Ages page 45? Attacking the messenger again. Have I said I know all there is about genetics? Nope. But I can hold my own with PhD's in the topic. And Yes, I can show how "sin in the DNA" theory can account for how sin entered the world by one man, and thus death by sin, and thus death passed to all men, Romans 5:12. And why sin affects all life on this planet. And the only explanation that makes sense, with a physiologic mechanism is DNA. And your pride, can be explained by the DNA. And science has shown how our DNA predisposes us to certain behaviors. Predisposes - not determines. But some are just not willing to examine the evidence. Most are left with an offended legal God that must execute those who break His rules. When in reality, the problem is that you can't mess with what God has made. That is sin: transgression of the laws of how we were made. You can change one jot or tittle, or the system will die, that is the wages of sin.

I know those verses. I could have provided those, but they do not define grace. You should know better.

As far as I know, there is no verse that clearly defines it. I don't need to put verses for the sake of putting verses.

Let's see if you can do what you expect others to do. Define grace.

seeing but you do not see. I guess you are not a mathematician. The equation is very very clear. Try it again. Do the math. Isaiah 52:11; Titus 3:5-7. Write out the equation.

Actually, I am a bit of a mathematician. Used to teach it in college. And as an engineer, I'm fairly good at word problems. Those verses have no equation. You are indulging in eisegesis.

Come come now, an engineer can figure this out. I also have an engineering degree. You are not even trying.

Oh - perhaps my last message had a little typo! But your Bible knowledge perhaps missed it. Try it again.

Isaiah 53:11; Titus 3:5-7. Write out the equation.

Well, I guess you do not want to take up the homework, or you have good to bed for the night. That's OK. Here is the answer key...


Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Let's see start with Titus, works does not save us, but Christ washes us, regenerates us. This is the essence of the Gospel - regeneration. OK how are we set right, which is justification? Ah - "by His grace". So it is by grace that we are set right. There, but does this tell us what grace is? No, we need more input. Let's look at Isaiah. If we read all of Isaiah 53, we know that Christ took on our sickness, though we thought it was punishment sent by God, it was not, but we sure thought it was, and many still do. Christ went through the great travail, and we know from from Hebrews 2:18, that going through this He is now able to succor us. Hebrews 2:17-18 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. So what Christ went though, He learn how to succor us, to help us. He gained knowledge of the problem having gone through it completely for us. He was the sacrificial lamb, that was needed to solve the problem And Isaiah 53:11 tells us that by His knowledge, He is able to justify many.

There. That is the equation.

Titus 3:7 "justified by his Grace". Isaiah 53:11 "by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many". We are justified by Grace. By His knowledge we are justified. GRACE = HIS KNOWLEDGE to solve the problem. That is THE definition of Grace, from the Bible and the Bible alone.

In humility and unutterable sadness they bade farewell to their beautiful home and went forth to dwell upon the earth, where rested the curse of sin. The atmosphere, once so mild and uniform in temperature, was now subject to marked changes, and the Lord mercifully provided them with a garment of skins as a protection from the extremes of heat and cold. – {PP 61.5}

As they witnessed in drooping flower and falling leaf the first signs of decay, Adam and his companion mourned more deeply than men now mourn over their dead. The death of the frail, delicate flowers was indeed a cause of sorrow; but when the goodly trees cast off their leaves, the scene brought vividly to mind the stern fact that death is the portion of every living thing. – {PP 62.1}

Can you explain how Adam's sin affected the DNA of plants, and even the atmosphere?

Perhaps you err in thinking that a physiological mechanism is necessary. As I have shown, there are other mechanisms for inheritance. Even simple computer programs can exhibit inheritance without any DNA. You have to give up the notion that the only way it can happen is the way you understand.

Yes, I can explain how Adam's sin affected not only plants, but all life. There is a very good genetic mechanism that explains it.

It is funny you should think that there is not a physiological mechanism. Can you explain how all life if affected by sin? What is your mechanism? How does sin cause heart disease, cancer, autoimmune disease, selfish behavior, death? Please, reason from cause and effect.

EGW: Selfishness is inwrought in our very being. It has come to us as an inheritance, and has been cherished by many as a precious treasure. {HS 138.7}

If this is not in the DNA, please give me the mechanism that we inherit selfishness? Was it in our grand parents will?

EGW: These dear children received from Adam an inheritance of disobedience, of guilt and death. {13MR 14.1}

Please, what is the mechanism of inheritance expressed here? Surely you can tell me, if it is not in the DNA? What is it?

EGW: To some suffering and disease have been transmitted as an inheritance. Others suffer because of accidents. Cause and effect are always in operation in our world, and always will be. {GCB, January 1, 1900 par. 14}

How is this suffereing and disease inherited if not in the DNA? Please, tell me the mechanism.

EGW: Unnatural cravings, sensual impulses, were their inheritance from birth. {MH 173.3}

How are these cravings inherited if not in the DNA? Please help me out!

EGW: Parents leave maladies as a legacy to their children. As a rule, every intemperate man who rears children transmits his inclinations and evil tendencies to his offspring; he gives them disease from his own inflamed and corrupted blood. Licentiousness, disease, and imbecility are transmitted as an inheritance of woe from father to son and from generation to generation, and this brings anguish and suffering into the world, and is no less than a repetition of the fall of man. {4T 30.1}

How is this legacy passed on? Please we need to understand. Help me!

EGW: But it is not an easy matter to overcome hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong.{4MR 383.3}

How are these tendencies passed along if not in the DNA? I want to know and understand!

EGW: But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}

What is the great law of heredity if it is not encoded in the DNA? What is the answer?

EGW: Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. . . . {CH 440.1}

This is Good News. The essence of the Gospel is Restoration.

Interesting. I'll think about that.

Don't forget this part: "The atmosphere, once so mild and uniform in temperature, was now subject to marked changes..." I would like to see the genetic mechanism for that.

I said all living things can be explained by DNA.