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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: APL] #152629
05/25/13 01:54 PM
05/25/13 01:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Having sinful flesh is not the same as acting out its unholy desires. So long as we abide in Jesus and rely on Him to recognize and resist it we are more than conquerors. Jesus always resisted the unholy clamorings of His sinful flesh nature. He never gave in to it.

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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #152630
05/25/13 04:27 PM
05/25/13 04:27 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
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Posts: 3,234
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Having sinful flesh is not the same as acting out its unholy desires. So long as we abide in Jesus and rely on Him to recognize and resist it we are more than conquerors. Jesus always resisted the unholy clamorings of His sinful flesh nature. He never gave in to it.
Thus Jesus is our example and we can also overcome.

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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rick H] #152632
05/25/13 08:55 PM
05/25/13 08:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
By being born again we too can have the same 'inclination to right' and 'live in an atmosphere of heavenly purity', that is the key.

So you believe Jesus was born born again?

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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rosangela] #152636
05/26/13 03:57 AM
05/26/13 03:57 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
By being born again we too can have the same 'inclination to right' and 'live in an atmosphere of heavenly purity', that is the key.

So you believe Jesus was born born again?
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 2:14-18 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

1 John 3:9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God sins not; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned love of the brothers, see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and stays for ever.

Christ was born with sinful flesh. He purges the sin, He destroyed the works of the devil. He was born again, but He and only He, did it Himself. He is now our faithful high priest, who is able to succor us because He went through it Himself. He knows how to do it. And this is the Biblical definition of grace! Isaiah 53:11; Titus 3:5-7.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: APL] #152638
05/26/13 03:34 PM
05/26/13 03:34 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Does this mean Yes?

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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rosangela] #152639
05/26/13 04:10 PM
05/26/13 04:10 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Western, USA
Read the scripture verses. What do they say?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: APL] #152640
05/26/13 04:43 PM
05/26/13 04:43 PM
Alpendave  Offline
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Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
Like I said already, the KJV mistranslates Hebrews 2:16. Beside this, there is nothing in the text that says that Jesus was born with sinful propensities. But if you want to take the KJV as it reads in v. 16, consider these texts:

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one


Being of the "seed of Abraham" is not something that pre-dispositions someone to sin, but is actually the opposite.

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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rick H] #152641
05/26/13 05:12 PM
05/26/13 05:12 PM
Alpendave  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, “in all points tempted like as we are;” but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. 47 {CSA 26.5}

The Refined Sensibilities of Jesus—Would that we could comprehend the significance of the words, Christ “suffered being tempted.” While He was free from the taint of sin, the refined sensibilities of His holy nature rendered contact with evil unspeakably painful to Him. Yet with human nature upon Him, He met the archapostate face to face, and single-handed withstood the foe of His throne. Not even by a thought could Christ be brought to yield to the power of temptation. {7BC 927.4}
Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself, “The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.” The storms of temptation burst upon Him, but they could not cause Him to swerve from His allegiance to God (The Review and Herald, November 8, 1887). {7BC 927.5}

Being born with a sinless nature exposed Jesus to a level of temptation above what we are exposed to until we have our natures transformed. Jesus did not have the luxury of indifference to that which we are tempted to indulge in (or pass judgement on those who indulge in). While Mary Magdalene's previous occupation may have aroused lustful desires or judgmental thoughts of other men, for Jesus, her condition caused deep soul anguish. His whole life, Jesus was under no obligation to live in an environment that was torture to Him. Jesus temptation was not about enjoying the perverse pleasures of sin, but about loving people less. Tempted in all points? Of course. He felt hunger more severe than we can imagine, but had to with on His Father to satisfy it. That doesn't mean He wanted to eat a pork chop or down a cup of coffee. He felt exceptional weariness, but that doesn't mean he wanted to smack on of His disciples upside the head the way some people use that excuse to shake a baby. But He did have a desire to take care of a legitimate need to rest in the place of meeting the needs of others. Not sinful in the perverse sort of way we are. He was tempted to do good that was not necessarily part of His Father's immediate plans. His temptations were subtle, and on all points, but never did He have an inborn attraction to sin for sin's sake. We are born that way.

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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Alpendave] #152642
05/27/13 03:15 AM
05/27/13 03:15 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: dave
Being of the "seed of Abraham" is not something that pre-dispositions someone to sin, but is actually the opposite.
I don't think anyone has said that Jesus had the propensity to sin.

What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition [what deteriorated it? SIN]. {16MR 115.3}

There was not a drop of bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of the curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {16MR 116.1}

By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin [the fallen nature]. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." [He bore our sin in His body] He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot [never participated in out sin]. {16MR 116.3}

The people of God should awaken to a keen perception of the grievous character of transgression. Sin is disguised, and many are deceived in regard to its nature [this should give us pause to think]. Satan has planned it thus, that the understanding may be clouded, the spiritual vision obscured, the perceptive faculties of the soul blunted. But God would not have one of us to be ensnared, therefore the nature of sin is faithfully portrayed in the inspired pages,--its offensive character before God, its corruption, its shame, and its results. Everything has been done that God could do to save man from the power of sin, which defaces the divine image, frustrates God's purpose in man's existence, degrades his God-given powers, narrows his capacity, leads to unholy imaginations, and gives loose rein to unsanctified passions. Sin! how hateful in the sight of God! Holy angels look upon it with abhorrence. {RH, June 3, 1880 par. 9}

Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience [we are born that way - it is genetic!]. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}

Hebrews 1:3 ...when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: [purge our sin? Are our sins purged? NO. He purged our sins out of his own body - this is the plan of redemption]

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me. [there was nothing left in Him that the devil could use, he could not be tempted, he was destroying the works of the devil]


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rosangela] #152648
05/27/13 07:37 AM
05/27/13 07:37 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,234
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
By being born again we too can have the same 'inclination to right' and 'live in an atmosphere of heavenly purity', that is the key.

So you believe Jesus was born born again?
I read in the SOP that from the womb the Holy Spirit came upon/filled Christ and I am trying to find that quote and at the same time see what scripture gives us. That is why I think this text gives us a understanding of how this could be...

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

and if John was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb..

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

and John the Baptist himself recognized one greater than him and said that Christ should be baptizing him...

Matthew 3
King James Version (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

then how could Christ not be filled with the Holy Spirit from birth...

Luke 1
King James Version (KJV)
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

When we are born again/born of the spirit is moot as I understand it, as long as it does happen is the crux of the matter, whether at the womb or later in life as per Nicodemus.

Last edited by Rick H; 05/27/13 07:45 AM.
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