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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152767
06/01/13 11:35 AM
06/01/13 11:35 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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OH - so torture applies to one who "deserves it" is OK. Really? "Love me, or I would torment you, and then kill you".
I will give you another parable of Jesus: Matthew 13:24-28 24 Another parable put he forth to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did not you sow good seed in your field? from where then has it tares? 28 He said to them, An enemy has done this. ...
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152768
06/01/13 11:42 AM
06/01/13 11:42 AM
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It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth. {COL 415.3} This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isaiah 40:9,10. {COL 415.4} Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them. {COL 415.5}Do you think, that God's character of love, if rejected, will bring on God's character of hatred? God's wrath as defined in Romans 1, is His giving people up to their own choices, and the result is horrible. God will not force anyone to accept His offer of healing (salvation). He will not inflict torment (torture) on those that reject Him. Sin itself pays its wage ( Romans 6:23) and sin which IT is full grown, brings forth death, James 1:15. It is not love me or I'll kill you, it is love me, who gave up infinity for you and who desires to heal you, for why should you die? Turn, and live! Ezekiel 18:32, Ezekiel 33:11
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152779
06/01/13 10:40 PM
06/01/13 10:40 PM
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OH - so torture applies to one who "deserves it" is OK. Really? "Love me, or I would torment you, and then kill you".
I will give you another parable of Jesus: Matthew 13:24-28 24 Another parable put he forth to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did not you sow good seed in your field? from where then has it tares? 28 He said to them, An enemy has done this. ... You didn't finish the parable. Afraid of the ending? 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Jesus identified the various participants in the parable in verses 37-39. The enemy planted the weeds. He is identified as the devil. The weeds are the wicked. Everyone else in the parable is on God's side. The reapers are God's servants. God asks them to cast the wicked into the fire. According to your view, why does God need to do this? Won't the weeds self-destruct without forcibly placing them into flames? Won't their "DNA" just "self-immolate" or something? And, if this causes them "torment," why is God in charge of it? Why would Jesus the Loving speak such a parable? God is too good to have no justice. God is too kind to permit sin to endure forever. God is too wise to leave sin to entirely run its own show. God is too loving to let His subjects be left in a sinful world with no help from their Creator and with no justice rendered toward their enemies. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152786
06/02/13 03:56 AM
06/02/13 03:56 AM
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You didn't finish the parable. Afraid of the ending? hardly. This parable is only one of a number that support genetic science. "I am the vine, you are the branches" is another. I won't go into the scientific details because I don't think you would be receptive at this time, but it is fantastic. Genesis 3:14-18 is all speaking of genetics. Romans 5, 6 and 7 is all genetics. EGW spoke a lot about sin and heredity (genetics). But it is true, if you don't wear those glasses, you will never see it. Is it essential to understand? What people need to understand is how sin is ingrained in our very being, and that only Christ can remove it. How it is in our very fabric, most will probably not understand in this lifetime.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152787
06/02/13 04:13 AM
06/02/13 04:13 AM
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God is too good to have no justice. God is too kind to permit sin to endure forever. God is too wise to leave sin to entirely run its own show. God is too loving to let His subjects be left in a sinful world with no help from their Creator and with no justice rendered toward their enemies. Who said God has no justice? Who said God will let sin take over the world? Read the book, "The Great Controversy" pages 35 and 36. "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." Who is the author of all disease and suffering? Satan. God is the restorer, Satan is the destroyer. God will be just, and justified in the end.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152788
06/02/13 08:50 AM
06/02/13 08:50 AM
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APL, We have gone round and round this rugged rock as ragged rascals running more than once on this forum. Wisdom is only found in moderation. Extreme views can never hope to present the full truth. We can paint a picture using only the reds, oranges and yellows, and lose all of the beauty afforded by the blues, greens and purples. In like manner, what you present is often truth, but because it leaves out a much greater amount of truth, becomes a "half-truth." As such, it is become nearly a lie. No one wants to be told but a half-truth. The full truth is that God is the restorer, as you have painted Him, while at the same time being the presiding Judge over the final judgment of the wicked. The fuller truth takes into its comprehension a breadth of understanding that cannot be seen if one wishes to blind himself or herself to the less disagreeable matters or those which are less easily understood. God is, neverthless, clear with us. He does not leave us to wonder about His activities, nor of His abhorrence for sin. While He may be merciful, He will not keep His anger forever. God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy his people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is none the less certain and terrible because it is long delayed. “The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.” [Isaiah 28:21.] To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked,” [Ezekiel 33:11.] The Lord is “merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,” “forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.” Yet he will “by no means clear the guilty.” “The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.” [Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3.] By terrible things in righteousness he will vindicate the authority of his downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which he bears long, and which he will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC88 627.1}
When Christ ceases his intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark, [Revelation 14:9, 10.] will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel, were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the Revelator, in describing these terrific scourges, “There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image.” The sea “became as the blood of a dead man, and every living soul died in the sea.” And “the rivers and fountains of waters became blood.” [Revelation 16:2-6, 8, 9.] Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares, “Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. [Revelation 16:2-6, 8, 9.] By condemning the people of God to death they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood, as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of his time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit, and were seeking to do the same work, with these murderers of the prophets. {GC88 627.2}
In the plague that follows, power is given to the sun “to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat.” [Revelation 16:2-6, 8, 9.] The prophets thus describe the condition of the earth at this fearful time: “The land mourneth;. . . because the harvest of the field is perished.” “All the trees of the field are withered; because joy is withered away from the sons of men.” “The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate.” “How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture. . . . The rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.” “The songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God; there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.” [Joel 1:10-12, 17-20; Amos 8:3.] {GC88 628.1}
These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final Judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy. {GC88 628.2}
In that day, multitudes will desire the shelter of God's mercy which they have so long despised. “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.” [Amos 8:11, 12.] {GC88 629.1} According to Mrs. White, what is to come from God in the future will be nothing like what has ever been seen prior to the close of probation. Always before God's judgments have been mingled with mercy. But not then. There is a day coming when everyone, APL, including you, will see what God's wrath will bring. Whether or not we have chosen to worship God, and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, will mean all the difference as to which side we are on then. May we be ready. Not for the plagues, but for our salvation. God bless, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152791
06/02/13 12:22 PM
06/02/13 12:22 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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GC: According to Mrs. White, what is to come from God in the future will be nothing like what has ever been seen prior to the close of probation. Always before God's judgments have been mingled with mercy.
A: Yes, and what has mercy done? Mercy has prevented the full effects of whas Satan has done to be expressed EGW: The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3} Do we not make the same mistake when we charge God with inflicting suffering?
GC: But not then. There is a day coming when everyone, APL, including you, will see what God's wrath will bring. Whether or not we have chosen to worship God, and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, will mean all the difference as to which side we are on then. A: I look forward to the day of God, do you? What is God's wrath? READ Romans 1. God's wrath is when He no longer prevents the resulfs that sin brings. And you point out what our choice really is, whether to worship God or not. What would one choose to worship God? To avoid punishment? To gain paradise?
To point out again, the Wrath of God, is God withdrawing His protection. We are seeing it happen... The disasters of the past year in America have caused hearts to tremble, and similar disasters have fallen upon other countries. Already sprinklings from the vials of God's wrath have been let fall upon land and sea, affecting the elements of the air. The causes of these unusual conditions are being searched for, but in vain. {3MR 312.2}
God has not restrained the powers of darkness from carrying forward their deadly work of vitiating the air, one of the sources of life and nutrition, with a deadly miasma. Not only is vegetable life affected, but man suffers from pestilences. Cholera and unexplainable diseases have broken out. Diphtheria, raging to a limited extent, is gathering its harvest of precious little ones, and seems to be almost uncontrollable. {3MR 312.3}
These things are the result of drops from the vials of God's wrath being sprinkled on the earth, and are but faint representations of what will be in the near future. Earthquakes in various places have been felt, but these disturbances have been very limited. This year we may expect to have more. During the year that has just closed, whole cities have become nearly extinct. Thousands of people have been buried in the bowels of the earth. Premonitory convulsions have been felt in many places, giving warning of what may come as a surprise when the earth shakes and opens. Terrible shocks will come upon the earth, and the lordly palaces erected at great expense will certainly become heaps of ruins. The earth's crust will be rent by the outbursts of the elements concealed in the bowels of the earth. These elements, once broken loose, will sweep away the treasures of those who for years have been adding to their wealth by securing large possessions at starvation prices from those in their employ. And the religious world, too, is to be terribly shaken; for the end of all things is at hand.--Ms 24, 1891. {3MR 312.4}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152798
06/02/13 09:43 PM
06/02/13 09:43 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Many regard the threatenings of the Bible as designed merely to frighten men into obedience, and not to be literally fulfilled. Thus the sinner can live in selfish pleasure, disregarding the requirements of God, and yet expect to be finally received into his favor. Such a doctrine, presuming upon God's mercy, but ignoring his justice, pleases the carnal heart, and emboldens the wicked in their iniquity. {GC88 537.1} Don't ignore God's justice. God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy his people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is none the less certain and terrible because it is long delayed. “The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.” [Isaiah 28:21.] To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked,” [Ezekiel 33:11.] The Lord is “merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,” “forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.” Yet he will “by no means clear the guilty.” “The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.” [Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3.] By terrible things in righteousness he will vindicate the authority of his downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which he bears long, and which he will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC88 627.1} Ignoring these righteous facts, or portraying them as unrighteous, is sinful. God will execute justice in just exactly the manner He has described. It won't be pleasant for God to do it. But sometimes unpleasant things must be done. Sin is to be cleaned up and removed entirely, Root and branch, from this universe. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#152800
06/03/13 12:04 AM
06/03/13 12:04 AM
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You continue to misrepresent "the other side". Is this intentional? Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God [this is the definition of mercy] that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. [Bingo - this is the part Green can not accept] Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1} There you have it. God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgress (SIN). Mercy, His restraining power, is removed, and the sinner "reaps that which they have sown". That is the answer. All other quotations need to include this one. Take as a whole, the TRUTH is clear. God is not the executioner. There will be a time when He will REMOVE His mercy. And all hell will break loose. Punishment will fall on the guilty. Sin pays it wage - death. It is not execution by God. Making God out to be the executioner, is the Devil's lie. Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
Sorry Green - I reject your picture of God. It is not the God I love, trust and worship.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Create Evil or Does God Permit Evil?
[Re: APL]
#152801
06/03/13 01:04 AM
06/03/13 01:04 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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The Orient
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APL,
I'm not presenting my picture of God. Have you not understood the source of the statements I'm presenting? They are all from God.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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