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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15317
08/23/05 03:32 PM
08/23/05 03:32 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Does anyone who holds to the traditional view that God does some of the "bad" things attributed to Him disagree with the following principle?
If inspiration presents God as doing something "bad", then we assume that it is He who is doing the thing, unless some other text in inspiration shows it is not really God.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15318
08/23/05 07:58 PM
08/23/05 07:58 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I wonder, is it just me wondering what would happen with the trustworthiness of the bible if we suddenly decided that much what it says about God is no longer God but satan? This is both in the prophets, Jesus teaching and the revelations from patmos. If God is said to have ordered the killings of the firstborn of egypt, the deportation of Israel to assyria and babylon, Jesus telling parables where the King orders the executions of His enemies and then Jesus after going to heavin sending John visions where God is warning the world of destruction to come by the outpoaring of cups of wrath by holy angles. If all this from all parts of the bible would suddenly be ascribed to the devil, then whats next for the editing room? What else have we always missunderstood for the past 3000 years or more that need correcting? Is the bible trustworthy? Can it be trusted to tell the truth?
/Thomas
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15319
08/23/05 08:34 PM
08/23/05 08:34 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
I wonder, is it just me wondering what would happen with the trustworthiness of the bible if we suddenly decided that much what it says about God is no longer God but satan? This is both in the prophets, Jesus teaching and the revelations from patmos. If God is said to have ordered the killings of the firstborn of egypt, the deportation of Israel to assyria and babylon, Jesus telling parables where the King orders the executions of His enemies and then Jesus after going to heavin sending John visions where God is warning the world of destruction to come by the outpoaring of cups of wrath by holy angles. If all this from all parts of the bible would suddenly be ascribed to the devil, then whats next for the editing room? What else have we always missunderstood for the past 3000 years or more that need correcting? Is the bible trustworthy? Can it be trusted to tell the truth?
These are excellent questions. When I mentioned there were problems with both principles I suggested, it was precisely the points that you are brining up that I had in mind.
Here are the two principles:
1)God presents Himself as doing that which He permits.
2)God does "bad" things when inspiration doesn't clarify that it wasn't really God.
If we stick to principle 1), then we have a way of explaining difficult areas of inspiration, such as genecide, the inflicting of painful diseases, and other behavior which seems un-Jesus like. However the downside is that this perspective requires a view of inspiration which is more open. That is, taking this point of view can make the Bible appear to be untrustworthy, as you have pointed out in your questions.
If we stick to principle 2), the we believe what inspiration says about God, unless it says something different somewhere else, we mitigate some of the "is the Bible trustworthy" questions. However, we are left with a God who approves of genecide, inflicts disease, and maims those who dare to oppose Him.
I personally have more problems adopting the second view than the first. This is a question each one will have to decide for themselves. I can't make any sense of the statements from inspiration that:
a)God does not use force to compell the conscience.
b)The principles of God's government are love, mercy and truth; force is to be found only in Satan's government.
c)God is good; just like Jesus. When we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father.
and
d)God will maim, inflict disease, and do countless other nasty things to you if you don't do what He says.
How can these things be rectified? I don't see how. On the other hand, if God says:
a)You are free to do whatever you want.
b)If you choose to reject me, these will be the consequences.
that I can see. This makes sense. If the consequences are ruin, not because God will maim, inflict disease and destroy, but because ruin comes whenever God is rejected, then we have a picture of God as Savior; one who wants to and will rescue His children from disaster, regardless of the cost to Himself. OTOH if God on the on the one hand says, "You are free to do what you want" but on the other says "If you don't do what I tell you, I will boil you in molten lava" then I don't see how this isn't coersion.
The issues of the Great Controversy have to do with:
a)The character of God.
b)The principles of God's government.
c)The nature of sin.
The character of God is precisely that which was revealed by Jesus Christ; gracious, kind, generous, self-sacrificing. The principles of God's government are love, mercy, grace and truth. Cruelty, force and coersion are to be found only in Satan's government. The nature of sin is that there are 1,000 ways it can destroy us, and God lovingly protects us from its damage, but eventually we will be ruined by it if we refuse to abide by the principles of His government, which are love, mercy, grace and truth.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15320
08/23/05 09:07 PM
08/23/05 09:07 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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The controversy is between Christ and Satan; between good and evil; between life and death; between the eternal life that was revealed unto us in Christ and him that has the power of death, that is the Devil.
Everything becomes clear in Christ.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15321
08/23/05 10:28 PM
08/23/05 10:28 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom, The Bible says that a power called the abomination of desolation would destroy Jerusalem, so this explains that Mark 12 and Matt. 26 in fact refer to God´s permission, because pagan nations do not act under God’s, but under Satan’s, control. If Jerusalem had been destroyed by an earthquake, or like Sodom, then it could be argued that it was destroyed by God. Being, as it was, destroyed by a pagan nation, this could only be described as something permitted, not caused, by God. quote:
Tom: It is possible that God would want Ahab to be deceived? Would His character allow this? Is the only reason we know the Ahab story is a parable because of Micaiah?
No, this is not possible, and the proof is that God presented to Ahab a parable through Micaiah in order to show him, as vividly as He could, the foolishness of trusting in false prophets.
quote:
Tom: If it's every true that God does bad things to prevent something worse, then Marx was correct: the ends justify the means.
After you have convinced me that the fact that God let Satan live was not a bad thing, we will continue this discussion.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15322
08/23/05 10:55 PM
08/23/05 10:55 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Rosangela: Tom,
The Bible says that a power called the abomination of desolation would destroy Jerusalem, so this explains that Mark 12 and Matt. 26 in fact refer to God´s permission, because pagan nations do not act under God’s, but under Satan’s, control. If Jerusalem had been destroyed by an earthquake, or like Sodom, then it could be argued that it was destroyed by God. Being, as it was, destroyed by a pagan nation, this could only be described as something permitted, not caused, by God.
Tom: You're reading into the quote. It just says God would destroy and burn the city. Even with your idea about the abomination of desolation, it still doesn't resolve the issue because God could have used the Romans to destroy the Jews. He could have still been the active agent.
The Spirit of Prophesy says what happened was that the Jews came under the control of Satan, who disguised his actions as being something God did. This is not the same thing you are saying, it doesn't seem to me.
Old Tom: It is possible that God would want Ahab to be deceived? Would His character allow this? Is the only reason we know the Ahab story is a parable because of Micaiah?
R: No, this is not possible, and the proof is that God presented to Ahab a parable through Micaiah in order to show him, as vividly as He could, the foolishness of trusting in false prophets.
Tom: Hmmm. My question was, is the only reason we know the Ahab stroy is a parable because of Micaiah, and you answer no, and the proof is Micaiah. Interesting answer.
How about if Micaiah wasn't involved? Then could we know the story was a parable?
Old Tom: If it's every true that God does bad things to prevent something worse, then Marx was correct: the ends justify the means.
R: After you have convinced me that the fact that God let Satan live was not a bad thing, we will continue this discussion.
Tom: God had to let Satan live because the alternative would have been worse. An evil seed of doubt would have remained, questioning whether God was as Satan said He was. The only way God could answer the question as to whether Satan's accusations regarding His character and the principles of His government were correct or not, and if Satan was correct in suggesting that he had a better way, was to allow Satan to live and give him a chance to develop his way of doing things.
When all creation has seen the truth, then the Great Controversy will come to an end.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15323
08/23/05 11:11 PM
08/23/05 11:11 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
God could have used the Romans to destroy the Jews.
It’s the same as saying that God used Judas to betray Jesus.
quote:
Tom: Hmmm. My question was, is the only reason we know the Ahab stroy is a parable because of Micaiah, and you answer no, and the proof is Micaiah. Interesting answer.
You asked, “It is possible that God would want Ahab to be deceived?”, to which I replied, “No, this is not possible, and the proof is that God presented to Ahab a parable through Micaiah in order to show him, as vividly as He could, the foolishness of trusting in false prophets.”
As I see it, my answer makes perfect sense.
quote:
Old Tom: If it's every true that God does bad things to prevent something worse, then Marx was correct
quote:
Tom: God had to let Satan live because the alternative would have been worse.
?
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15324
08/24/05 12:58 AM
08/24/05 12:58 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
R: After you have convinced me that the fact that God let Satan live was not a bad thing, we will continue this discussion.
Tom: God had to let Satan live because the alternative would have been worse. An evil seed of doubt would have remained, questioning whether God was as Satan said He was. The only way God could answer the question as to whether Satan's accusations regarding His character and the principles of His government were correct or not, and if Satan was correct in suggesting that he had a better way, was to allow Satan to live and give him a chance to develop his way of doing things.
When all creation has seen the truth, then the Great Controversy will come to an end.
What “bad thing” did God do by “letting Satan live”?
Why should God’s mercy and longsuffering be construed as bad?
God’s actions are not one of “show and tell”. Things are not done for display. They are genuine actions from a genuine heart for each and every creation, including Lucifer. God deals and responds to each situation genuinely. The point is to know and understand what he considers proper response.
The one who taught us: Mat 5:44 … Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; could hardly do different himself, when he was confronted with his enemy, including us.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15325
08/24/05 02:16 AM
08/24/05 02:16 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I had this in mind, John: quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. (DA 764)
I agree completely with your thoughts regarding God loving His enemies. What Christ commanded is what He was, and what He was is what He saw of His Father.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15326
08/24/05 09:27 AM
08/24/05 09:27 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
What “bad thing” did God do by “letting Satan live”?
Just look at this earth and you will have the answer. Billions of creatures suffer and billions will go to the lake of fire because God let Satan live.
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