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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153272
06/16/13 06:25 PM
06/16/13 06:25 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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What the passages above say is that sin is the cause of death, not that sin is the agent of death. If a criminal is hanged, what killed him? His crime or the gallows? His crime was the cause, the gallows were the agent of his death. So sin is the cause of death, but the glory of God is the agent. Sin per se wouldn't cause death.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#153274
06/16/13 06:36 PM
06/16/13 06:36 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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The same glory will not kill the righteous in exactly the same circumstances. What is different? The presence of sin or not. So it IS Sin that causes the death. No sin, no death, same glory.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153275
06/16/13 06:38 PM
06/16/13 06:38 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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He was slain by the sin of the world. {DA 772.2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153276
06/16/13 06:40 PM
06/16/13 06:40 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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Posts: 6,368
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Expel sin from your hearts; for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {RH, July 22, 1884 par. 9} SIN - NOT GOD.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153278
06/16/13 09:11 PM
06/16/13 09:11 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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So it IS Sin that causes the death. No sin, no death, same glory. But no glory, no death. Simple. "But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them" (DA 107). According to your view sin is not so bad, because it destroys itself (which is a good thing). But this is not what will happen.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#153280
06/16/13 10:53 PM
06/16/13 10:53 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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So it IS Sin that causes the death. No sin, no death, same glory. But no glory, no death. Simple. "But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them" (DA 107). According to your view sin is not so bad, because it destroys itself (which is a good thing). But this is not what will happen. Sin is not so bad? You say that's want I think? Sin destroys everything that has it. And that's not bad? If YOU say so. That's not what I say
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153295
06/17/13 01:23 PM
06/17/13 01:23 PM
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The point is - GOD will destroy sin. Sin is not going to destroy itself by destroying its possessors.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153300
06/17/13 02:53 PM
06/17/13 02:53 PM
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Malachi 4 tells us that when the fires do come at the end, the sinners will be stubble. They are dead. Then the fires cleanse the earth? Why fire? Why burn up the whole earth if the sinners are dead? Why Green? If the sinners are already dead before the fire xomes down from heaven to consume them, then how do you explain the following EGW quote? “Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” [Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; 11:6 (MARGIN).] Fire comes down from God out of Heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. [Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10.] The earth's surface seems one molten mass,—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men,— 673 “the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” [Isaiah 34:8; Proverbs 11:31.] {GC88 672.2} The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. [Isaiah 34:8; Proverbs 11:31.] They “shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” [Malachi 4:1.] Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch,—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and Heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC88 673.1}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Daryl]
#153301
06/17/13 04:14 PM
06/17/13 04:14 PM
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Daryl - with respect to the fire, you need to explain how someone can burn for many days. This would require supernatural intervention in order to keep the sinner alive so they can get the appropriate amount of punishment. Throw in a few more references! How about Luke 12:48? And Early Writings 294.1? Is there something else to describe the fire talked about in you GC88 673.1 quote? Is there other fire talked about besides those of Malachi 4:1 which talks about the burning up of the stubble, and 3 Peter 3:10 where the elements melt which does not seem to fit? Luke 6:35 But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind to the unthankful and to the evil.Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: 22 For you shall heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD shall reward you. Romans 12:20-21 Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. How about Ezekiel 28:18 or 1 Corinthians 13:3 and the whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 13? Did Christ die the death of a sinner? Was there literal fire in Gethsemane or the Cross where Christ tasted death for all of us? Was there mental agony? Oh yeah... See DA 686.3. If we use the sacrificial system as a type of the final death of the wicked, the animals was slain by the sinner (= sin leads to death) and AFTER it was dead, it was burnt. When Jesus described Gehenna, He described it in terms of emotional agony ("weeping and gnashing of teeth") just as Ellen White does in ST April 14, 1898. She calls this emotional experience "the worm that does not die and the fire that is not quenched." We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the worm that dieth not, and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, he will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins, and despises forgiveness and grace, will suffer the result of his course. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153302
06/17/13 06:51 PM
06/17/13 06:51 PM
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How else are we to interpret that EGW quote?
She plainly said what she said, therefore, there would obviously need to be a supernatural continuation of life and suffering in this instance.
Remember, this is in reference to the final executive phase of the Judgment and 2nd death of the wicked.
After posting this and my previous post the focus here is really what saves us rather than what kills us, as in the 2nd death.
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