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Re: What saves us? [Re: Daryl] #153303
06/17/13 08:44 PM
06/17/13 08:44 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Did you read the ST April 14, 1898 quote? Read the whole article.

Did Jesus die the 2nd death or not? IF you believe He did, then there is your answer. IF you believe He did not, the you need to explain what death He did die. There are only 2 types. Christ tasted death for all. Which death? The righteous and the wicked all die the first death, so is that the death He died? No.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153304
06/17/13 08:47 PM
06/17/13 08:47 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: EGW
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153305
06/17/13 09:16 PM
06/17/13 09:16 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: EGW
But it was not the spear thrust, it was not the pain of the cross, that caused the death of Jesus. That cry, uttered "with a loud voice" (Matthew 27:50; Luke 23:46), at the moment of death, the stream of blood and water that flowed from His side, declared that He died of a broken heart. His heart was broken by mental anguish. He was slain by the sin of the world. {DA 772.2}
God is not an executioner. Sin killed Christ, sin will kill the wicked in the end. The previous quotes tells us what the fire is and how it will destroy.
Originally Posted By: daryl
After posting this and my previous post the focus here is really what saves us rather than what kills us, as in the 2nd death.
Is is written: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.What are we saved from? From the destruction by God? Or saved from our sins? Is is written: Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

We are not saved from God, we are saved from our sins.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153306
06/17/13 09:39 PM
06/17/13 09:39 PM
Johann  Offline
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This subject deals with our eternal destiny. It seem like some of us have left the dimension of faith out of this. Consider these verses and their context:

Quote:
Psalm 78:32
For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.


Quote:
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.




"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153310
06/18/13 05:01 AM
06/18/13 05:01 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
We are not saved from God, we are saved from our sins.


Quote:
God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. Romans 5:8, 9, RSV. {LHU 242.1}


Interesting?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #153311
06/18/13 05:04 AM
06/18/13 05:04 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
The point is - GOD will destroy sin. Sin is not going to destroy itself by destroying its possessors.

Amen. And the watching universe will wonder at the patience of God which has waited so long to remove the blot of sin from the universe. All will see God's justice in this act of destruction.

In a sense, this is true salvation--salvation from sin. We will never again after this destruction need to face the evil of sin.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What saves us? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153313
06/18/13 06:19 AM
06/18/13 06:19 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
We are not saved from God, we are saved from our sins.


Quote:
God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. Romans 5:8, 9, RSV. {LHU 242.1}


Interesting?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Define "the wrath of God".

Romans 1:18-28

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Deuteronomy 31:17-18
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come on us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have worked, in that they are turned to other gods.

Although David was inspired and “a man after God’s own heart,” he was not to build the temple of the Lord. God told him why:
1 Chronicles 22:7-8
7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house to the name of the LORD my God:
8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, You have shed blood abundantly, and have made great wars: you shall not build an house to my name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in my sight.

But we say that's a GOOD THING for God to do in the end, to shed much blood? Really? Sinners will die, but why? The wrath of God.

The last plagues, is this an outpouring of the wrath of God? Yes it is! How does it work? EGW describes the working of the wrath of God like this:
Originally Posted By: EGW
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}


THAT is the wrath of God. When God no longer restrains.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 2:4 the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

True faith rests in the knowledge that God does nothing out of character, nothing arbitrary, and nothing outside of the principles of His law. We can rest and trust Him in the unknown because of what we have learned and know of Him.

We need to be saved from our sins, not God. Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153316
06/18/13 07:20 AM
06/18/13 07:20 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

Your EGW quote does not depict the wrath of God. It depicts the final scenes in which the fullest extent of sin will be witnessed unchecked by God's restraining hand. It is against this sin that God's wrath will afterward come. That would be found in another quote.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What saves us? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153317
06/18/13 07:22 AM
06/18/13 07:22 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: EGW
As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. {EW 280.2}

The wrath of God is as Romans 1 depicts - God removing His restraint. This statement verifies the truth that it is the removal of God’s restraining power that releases the powers of individuals and nature into Satan’s hands. They then burst with destructive fury upon the shelterless heads of the wicked. Do not misconstrue this that the Son is sheltering the people from God, and when the restraint is removed, God then acts destruction. No. Jesus and His Father are one. 2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. There could be nothing closer than the unity of the Father and the Son in the work of salvation. God is not seeking to destroy sinners while the Son works to delay the unleashing of the Father’s fury.

Also, as we see that the wrath of God functions through the work of Satan, we are given a clear understanding of what His wrath is and what it is not, for God does not work with Satan to achieve a destructive purpose. Rather, as people reach a point of total rejection of God, in the granting of freedom to choose their path, He has no choice but to give them over to Satan, who is then released to do his own work, to God’s sorrow.
Originally Posted By: EGW
God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with men until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance. From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 7}

... Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8}


Originally Posted By: EGW
It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}


Originally Posted By: EGW
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


The wicked have sown the seed. The harvest is inevitable. But it is not the work of God. It is the work of people against themselves. They sowed the seed. They reap the harvest.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153318
06/18/13 07:26 AM
06/18/13 07:26 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Your EGW quote does not depict the wrath of God. It depicts the final scenes in which the fullest extent of sin will be witnessed unchecked by God's restraining hand. It is against this sin that God's wrath will afterward come. That would be found in another quote.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
What is the sentence against transgression of God's law? Death. Read the quotes carefully. God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression. It does not get much clearer than that.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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