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Re: What saves us? [Re: Daryl] #153431
06/20/13 11:57 PM
06/20/13 11:57 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Daryl,

Did Christ dies the second death? Did he taste death for us all? If so, then CHRIST is the answer.

Follow question, how does Christ's shed blood save.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153432
06/21/13 12:02 AM
06/21/13 12:02 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: rosangela
No matter how you slice it, this is a subject difficult to understand. The Bible says there will be different degrees of punishment. EGW makes clear that this will be true not only in terms of intensity, but of duration (she says some will be destroyed in a moment, while others will suffer for many days). I'm inclined to believe the torture the wicked will experience will be first a mental one, like that of Jesus, and only then the literal fire will do its work. However, this mental torture will be worse than a physical torture. I don't know how you can reconcile this with your picture of God.
Mental torture brought on by God? Did God play mind games with Christ? No. Sin kills. The cross demonstrates this. You truly believe that God says, "love me, or I will torture you, then kill you". Is it any wonder we are losing our young people?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153434
06/21/13 12:20 AM
06/21/13 12:20 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,130
Nova Scotia, Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Daryl,

Did Christ dies the second death? Did he taste death for us all? If so, then CHRIST is the answer.

Follow question, how does Christ's shed blood save.

The following text says that without the shedding of blood, namely Christ's blood, there isn't any remission of sins:
Originally Posted By: Hebrews 9:22 KJV
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Remission of sins is answered here:
Originally Posted By: Matthew 26:28 KJV
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: What saves us? [Re: Daryl] #153435
06/21/13 12:32 AM
06/21/13 12:32 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
I acknowledge the fact, that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission. WHY? What does that do?

You did not answer if you believe that Christ died the second death. Did He?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153436
06/21/13 01:21 AM
06/21/13 01:21 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,130
Nova Scotia, Canada
Yes, Christ experienced and died the 2nd death for us.

He was the only one who was resurrected from that 2nd death experience only because He suffered for our own sins and not for His own, in that He suffered the penalty for our own sins. He didn't have any sins of His own in His life. This is part of what saves us.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153438
06/21/13 01:51 AM
06/21/13 01:51 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Mental torture brought on by God? Did God play mind games with Christ? No. Sin kills. The cross demonstrates this. You truly believe that God says, "love me, or I will torture you, then kill you".

Of course God doesn't say in His heart, "I will produce the most horrible thoughts in the minds of these people." It doesn't work that way. God's character reproves sin. His eyes, His countenance, His demeanor, reflect His holiness and His aversion to sin. People won't be able to avoid seeing this when they are in His presence during the judgment. This produces, in the sinner, the most horrible anguish. But, if He wished, He could avoid this. He could avoid bringing these people into His presence. When Christ drove out the money-changers from the temple, He wasn't passively abandoning them. He was actively showing His wrath, in a way very similar to what will happen at the day of judgment. These quotes are taken from DA chap. 16:

“As He beholds the scene, indignation, authority, and power are expressed in His countenance.”

“With a zeal and severity He has never before manifested, He overthrows the tables of the money-changers.”

“Even the disciples tremble. They are awestruck by the words and manner of Jesus, so unlike His usual demeanor.”

And this quote is from DA chap. 65, “The Temple Cleansed Again”:
The displeasure of His countenance seemed like consuming fire.”

Consider this experience of Ellen White:

“I did not realize that I was unfaithful in thus questioning and doubting, and did not see the danger and sin of such a course, until in vision I was taken into the presence of Jesus. He looked upon me with a frown, and turned His face from me. It is not possible to describe the terror and agony I then felt. I fell upon my face before Him, but had no power to utter a word. Oh, how I longed to be covered and hid from that dreadful frown! Then could I realize, in some degree, what the feelings of the lost will be...” {CET 79}

Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #153439
06/21/13 01:58 AM
06/21/13 01:58 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
When Christ overthrew the money tables, not the people.

"He looked upon me with a frown, and turned His face from me."

He turned His face, He did not strike out.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153440
06/21/13 01:59 AM
06/21/13 01:59 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: daryl
Yes, Christ experienced and died the 2nd death for us.
Bingo - if you want to know how God is involved with the 2nd death - LOOK TO THE CROSS.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153444
06/21/13 03:51 AM
06/21/13 03:51 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: rosangela
No matter how you slice it, this is a subject difficult to understand. The Bible says there will be different degrees of punishment. EGW makes clear that this will be true not only in terms of intensity, but of duration (she says some will be destroyed in a moment, while others will suffer for many days). I'm inclined to believe the torture the wicked will experience will be first a mental one, like that of Jesus, and only then the literal fire will do its work. However, this mental torture will be worse than a physical torture. I don't know how you can reconcile this with your picture of God.
Mental torture brought on by God? Did God play mind games with Christ? No. Sin kills. The cross demonstrates this. You truly believe that God says, "love me, or I will torture you, then kill you". Is it any wonder we are losing our young people?


We are losing our young people because we have not studied the Bible and these truths with them. We have instead tried to "entertain" them with contemporary songs, games, and movie nights in the gym. We have tried to cover up our own hypocrisies with fake garments of righteousness, and they have seen right through it all. They are leaving because they are starving. There is a famine in the land--not a famine of bodily food, but of hearing the words of the Lord.

Romans chapter 10 here applies.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What saves us? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153448
06/21/13 04:42 AM
06/21/13 04:42 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you shall be no priest to me: seeing you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children.

No priest - we are not teaching them the truth. Law of God - we make God out the be the biggest law breaker.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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