Yes, they look the same to me. It was hard to find, because apparently the times that are posted are not universal. That is, there is no 11:30 post on my computer, but I was able to find the ones you were talking about by comparing the minutes (something ending in "30" and "55" resp).

I'm sure what happened was when I brought the computer up the next day, there was the post, and I just thought I hadn't posted it. Sorry for any confusion. Please disregard the second post (or disregard the first one, whichever you prefer).

Also, thank you for your contributions. It's not likely we'll change our overall perspective in our discussion, but we can learn how each other thinks more clearly, and also learn what the implications are of the underlying positions we take.

John, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but both the Bible and Ellen White say clearly that there is a "point of no return", spiritually speaking. Of course the problem is with the sinner, not with God, for God is always willing to forgive. But after the sinner reaches this point of no return, nothing more can be done for him.

The word (mis)translated as “in danger of” is enochos, which means:

1) bound, under obligation, subject to, liable
1a) used of one who is held by, possessed with love, and zeal for anything
1b) in a forensic sense, denoting the connection of a person either with his crime, or with the penalty or trial, or with that against whom or which he has offended
1b1) guilty, worthy of punishment
1b2) guilty of anything
1b3) of the crime
1b4) of the penalty
1b5) liable to this or that tribunal i.e. the punishment to by imposed by this or that tribunal
1b6) of the place where punishment is to be suffered

The horse does break his leg irreparably, whether you admit it or not.

Your commentary on “in danger of eternal damnation” confirms my statement that it is a state of being, rather than an act. As the previous half of the sentence says that such “hath never forgiveness” which is also a state of being, as opposed to never can get forgiveness.

As you are agreed that the shortcoming is not on God’s part for God is always willing to forgive; then in light of this topic of “who or what causes the evil”; I think it should be evident and agreed that it is the transgressor with whom the cause sits.

John,

The problem is always with the sinner. But if the sinner reaches a point where he can no longer be reached by the grace of God, and becomes not only a curse to himself but a menace to others, God, for his good and for the good of others, removes his life.

"In the destruction of the old world by a flood of waters, God gave evidence that men had exceeded the bounds prescribed through His long-sufferance. And whenever a people, with a 'thus saith the Lord' to guide them, presume upon His mercy, and go decidedly counter to His will, despising all His warnings, they finally exceed the limits of grace. Then God interferes and vindicates the honor of His law. He represses the increase of unrighteousness, by blotting out the race who become indifferent to His law which had been made known to the inhabitants of the Noatic [world]. Thus the Lord reveals to the whole human family that it is possible to go so far in sin and disgraceful transgression of His law, that it becomes necessary for Him to limit human life, and interpose in His wrath to prevent their spoiling one another in continual disobedience and defiance of His law" {21MR 65.2}

How carefully God protects the rights of men! He has attached a penalty to wilful murder. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." (Gen. 9:6) If one murderer were permitted to go unpunished, he would by his evil influence and cruel violence subvert others. This would result in a condition of things similar to that which existed before the Flood. God must punish murderers. He gives life, and He will take life, if that life becomes a terror and a menace (MS 126, 1901). {1BC 1091.3}

Yes, that is the perspective, Tom.

Back on the first page of this topic, I asked Tom E.:

quote:

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Tom, have you considered the fact that EGW stated time and again that God caused the Flood, in modern language so plain that none need miss it?

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He answered,

quote:

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Why would the fact that it is stated in modern language change anything? Isn't the fact the Bible says something sufficient?

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I'd say No, sometimes the Bible isn't sufficient, when people have strayed so far off the path of truth that they no longer can discern what the Bible itself says. That's one of the reasons God sent EGW in these last days, to correct those who have made erroneous interpretations of what the Bible so clearly states.

Samuel Koranteng-Pipim, in the excellent new book Here We Stand, quotes Ellen White on the subject, and together they put it like this (all emphasis mentioned below is SKP's):

"While upholding sola scripture, and thus referring to her works as the 'lesser light,' Ellen White herself described her twofold function in the church as follows: 'God has, in that Word [the Bible], promised to give visions in the "last days"; not for a new rule of faith, but for the comfort of His people, and to correct those who err from the Bible truth' (Early Writings, p. 78, emphasis mine). The light God gave her, she explains, 'has been given to correct specious error and to specify what is truth' (Selected Messages, bk. 3, p. 32, emphasis mine). Notice that the writings of Ellen White are not to establish a new rule of faith apart from the Bible. Rather, they have been given the church to 'comfort' God's people (when they are in the right path), to 'correct' them (when they err from the truth), and to 'specify' what is truth (when they are not sure). With so many confusing, conflicting voices involved in Biblical interpretation, can anyone doubt the importance and urgency of the Spirit of Prophecy in the hermeneutical enterprise?"

-- Here We Stand, chapter "Current Discussions on Creation," p. 256, endnote 16.

So -- in cases where people have lost sight of what the Bible says and means, to where they even question whether or not God caused the Flood -- no, the Bible isn't enough. Such people need clearer statements from the Spirit of Prophecy that hopefully won't be misunderstood like the Bible has been.

I really can't agree it was Satan's power which caused the flood.

"The men of Noah's time, in their philosophy and worldly wisdom, thought God could not destroy the world with a flood, for the waters of the ocean could not be sufficient for this. But God made the philosophy and science of men foolishness when the time had fully come to execute his word. The inspired pen describes the earth as standing out of the water and in the water. God had his weapons concealed in the bowels of the earth to compass her destruction. And when the great men and the wise men had reasoned before the world of the impossibility of its destruction by water, and the fears of the people were quieted, and all regarded Noah's prophecy as the veriest delusion, and looked upon Noah as a crazy fanatic, God's time had come. He hid Noah and his family in the ark, and the rain began to descend, slowly at first; the jeers and scoffings did not cease for a time, but soon the waters from heaven united with the waters of the great deep; the waters under the earth burst through the earth's surface, and the windows of heaven were opened, and man with all his philosophy and so-called science, finds that he had not been able in his worldly wisdom to comprehend God. He found too late that his wisdom was foolishness; that the Lawgiver is greater than the laws of nature. The hand of omnipotence is at no loss for ways and means to accomplish his purposes. He could reach into the bowels of the earth and call forth his weapons, waters there concealed, to aid in the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world. But let us all bear in mind that those who perished in that awful judgment had an offer of escape.... As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Water will never destroy the earth again, but the weapons of God are concealed in the bowels of the earth which he will draw forth to unite with the fire from heaven to accomplish his purpose in the destruction of all those who would not receive the message of warning and purify their souls in obeying the truth and being obedient to the laws of God." {ST, January 3, 1878}

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice."--Ms 5, 1876, pp. 1-3.

Besides, 1) Satan did not desire the antediluvians to die, but to live, to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven; and when the flood did come, 2) he feared for his own existence (PP 99, 100).