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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#153589
06/24/13 07:53 PM
06/24/13 07:53 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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Temptation is enticement to sin, and this does not proceed from God, but from 1) Satan and from 2) the evil of our own hearts. {MB 116.2}
The problem is you believe there was evil in Christ's heart, and we disagree with you. Christ's character was spotless. According to Ellen White, there are two sources of temptation: Satan and the evil of our own hearts. If Christ didn't have any evil in His heart, it stands to reason that He could only be tempted by Satan. So he could not be tempted in all ways as we are?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: APL]
#153596
06/25/13 01:29 AM
06/25/13 01:29 AM
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The Bible says He was tempted in all points like as we are.
In the wilderness of temptation Christ met the great leading temptations that would assail man. There He encountered, single-handed, the wily, subtle foe, and overcame him. The first great temptation was upon appetite; the second, presumption; the third, love of the world. Satan has overcome his millions by tempting them to the indulgence of appetite. Through the gratification of the taste, the nervous system becomes excited and the brain power enfeebled, making it impossible to think calmly or rationally. The mind is unbalanced. Its higher, nobler faculties are perverted to serve animal lust, and the sacred, eternal interests are not regarded. When this object is gained, Satan can come with his two other leading temptations and find ready access. His manifold temptations grow out of these three great leading points. {CD 151.1}
The form of temptations varies greatly, the essence is always the same, involving one or more of the three leading points.
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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#153599
06/25/13 02:48 AM
06/25/13 02:48 AM
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EGW: He knows by experience what are the weaknesses of humanity, what are our wants, and where lies the strength of our temptations; for He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. {DA 329.2}
He can only know our experience by going through what we go through. He took on Himself our fallen nature.
EGW: In taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: APL]
#153607
06/25/13 06:02 AM
06/25/13 06:02 AM
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He can only know our experience by going through what we go through. He took on Himself our fallen nature. I don't believe this. I don't understand this to be what Mrs. White said, either. God knows us better than we know ourselves. How? He knows our thoughts. He knows how many hairs are on our heads. He knows what we will do ten years from now, or if we'll still be around at that time. He knows everything about us. Why would He have to experience anything directly as one of us to understand us? Does God not experience everything, absolutely everything, vicariously already? Jesus lived here, not to understand us, but to show us that He could understand. We are too dense to realize that God understands if He is never living with us as one of us, "walking in our shoes." Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: APL]
#153615
06/25/13 01:47 PM
06/25/13 01:47 PM
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He can only know our experience by going through what we go through. He took on Himself our fallen nature. What does He know about the power of an addiction?
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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153618
06/25/13 02:59 PM
06/25/13 02:59 PM
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OP
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He can only know our experience by going through what we go through. He took on Himself our fallen nature. I don't believe this. I don't understand this to be what Mrs. White said, either. Hebrews 2:14-1814 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. God knows us better than we know ourselves. How? He knows our thoughts. He knows how many hairs are on our heads. He knows what we will do ten years from now, or if we'll still be around at that time. He knows everything about us. Why would He have to experience anything directly as one of us to understand us? Does God not experience everything, absolutely everything, vicariously already? God knows everything that can be known. Jesus lived here, not to understand us, but to show us that He could understand. We are too dense to realize that God understands if He is never living with us as one of us, "walking in our shoes." Interesting. Sounds like the Moral Influence Theory, which Rosangela knows people falsely accuse Graham Maxwell of teaching. Interesting. One has to ask the question then WHY did Jesus have to die? Just a nice moral influence? Pretty simple, right? Rightly understood, the plan of redemption can easily be understood by a child, yet the complexity and difficulty of the plan will be our study for eternity.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#153628
06/25/13 06:01 PM
06/25/13 06:01 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
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He can only know our experience by going through what we go through. He took on Himself our fallen nature. What does He know about the power of an addiction? It is written: John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant [slave/addict] of sin.Why do you think we become slaves to sin? Do you know that drug addictions create real physical changes in the brain? Christ took our fallen nature but never participated in its sin.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: APL]
#153644
06/26/13 02:04 AM
06/26/13 02:04 AM
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God knows everything that can be known. And God knew it before Jesus became a human, right? Which proves my point. Jesus did not need to come and suffer as one of us to understand us. He already did. But He needed to show us that He understood. The cross was also partly to show us His love, but it was much more than that. It was necessary to fulfill the law, and to accept our punishment as our perfect Substitute. This has nothing to do with merely a "nice moral influence." Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153647
06/26/13 02:21 AM
06/26/13 02:21 AM
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OP
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God knows everything that can be known. And God knew it before Jesus became a human, right? Which proves my point. Jesus did not need to come and suffer as one of us to understand us. He already did. Did you read Hebrews 2:14-18??? I don't think so... But He needed to show us that He understood. The cross was also partly to show us His love, ... How many understood this when it happened? Sure sounds like moral influence. ...but it was much more than that. It was necessary to fulfill the law, and to accept our punishment as our perfect Substitute. This has nothing to do with merely a "nice moral influence." Now you are speaking penal substitution. A legal problem. How does sin cause disease and death. Oh, it doen't cause death, I forgot? How does sin cause flowers to wilt and animals to get sick? How does sin do that? Or is God imposing an penalty on plants and animals?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: How was Christ made to be sin?
[Re: APL]
#153650
06/26/13 05:29 AM
06/26/13 05:29 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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APL, I'm not a full-time, semantics-studying, exegesis-touting theologian who knows all of the latest semantical buzzwords. I enjoy studying God's Word, and discussing it. That said, I haven't heard of this so-called "moral influence theory." I have no idea what you may be referring to by it. As for the concept of "penal substitution," I find that in God's Word. I don't know why you reject it, but I suspect it has to do with your concept of God's justice. How can you believe in a penalty for sin if sin must execute its own judgment? So you are forced to find a way to discredit the penal substitution. But what do we hear from Mrs. White? We hear things like these. The sins of the people were transferred in figure to the officiating priest, who was a mediator for the people. The priest could not himself become an offering for sin, and make an atonement with his life, for he was also a sinner. Therefore, instead of suffering death himself, he killed a lamb without blemish; the penalty of sin was transferred to the innocent beast, which thus became his immediate substitute, and typified the perfect offering of Jesus Christ. Through the blood of this victim, man looked forward by faith to the blood of Christ which would atone for the sins of the world. {1SM 230.2}
Voluntarily our divine Substitute bared His soul to the sword of justice, that we might not perish but have everlasting life. ... {1SM 322.1}
I would call on all who would win heaven, to take warning. Do not devote your precious probationary time to sewing together fig leaves to cover the nakedness which is the result of sin. As you look into the Lord's great moral looking glass, His holy law, His standard of character, do not for a moment suppose that it can cleanse you. There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor. The penalty must be exacted. The Lord does not save sinners by abolishing His law, the foundation of His government in heaven and in earth. The punishment has been endured by the sinner's substitute. Not that God is cruel and merciless, and Christ so merciful that He died on Calvary's cross to abolish a law so arbitrary that it needed to be extinguished, crucified between two thieves. The throne of God must not bear one stain of crime, one taint of sin. In the councils of heaven, before the world was created, the Father and the Son covenanted together that if man proved disloyal to God, Christ, one with the Father, would take the place of the transgressor, and suffer the penalty of justice that must fall upon him (MS 145, 1897). {6BC 1070.4} That third quote is especially poignant. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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