This post makes me sad. Are we reaching the culmination of a war where quotations are the weapons used?

When so different ideologies interpret those quotations they could miss the mark.

A prime example of this was seen during the exchange of quotations that took place at the temptations of Christ. The archenemy used his choice quotations as well, and he is still at it. This encounter shows that quotations are useless unless the spirit of the author has imbued the parties involved.

Johann,

We are in a war. It is called the Great Controversy. In this war, Satan's prime objection against God is that His law is unjust, unfair, and cannot be kept. As part of this core argument, the modern belief that God cannot fairly execute justice is being proclaimed.

The evidence is before us. It is up to each one to decide for himself or herself. But it is not up to each one to change the reward that God has for him or her into one of his or her own choosing after probation has closed. Now is the acceptable time to study and to learn and to choose the service of God.

It is true that Satan used scriptures when tempting Christ in the wilderness. Satan still uses scriptures today. But does that mean a true Christian should not use scriptures? Because Satan did it does that mean it must be evil to do so?

Hardly. Christ quoted the scriptures time and time again. "It is written" was His response to even those scriptures which Satan had presented. We are counseled to meet the enemy like Jesus did--with scripture.

Truth is not always pleasing to the ear. But it is faithful. Let each one value truth above that of his or her own opinion, and may personal pride and prejudice be laid aside. We must open our eyes, and pray as did the Psalmist, "Open thou mine eyes, that I might behold wondrous things out of thy law." This has been a prayer of mine many times, beginning in my youth.

God is good. I praise the Lord for His willingness to reveal His truths to such undeserving souls as mine.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I this "warfare" I detect that APL is "infected" by his studies of how the Holy Spirit led our pioneers to understand the inspiration of the writings of the Bible and Ellen G White. "Unfortunately" he seems to be using the same weapons as you are using, namely quotations from the same sources.

When I study the sources - as found on a CD along with the King James Version of the Bible and all of the writings of Ellen G White I detect certain warnings there on how not to understand the Scriptures. APL seems to heed those warnings and instructions.

I will not here try to define how others heed those warnings and instructions. That cannot be shown through short quotations, but it can only be seen by thorough studies under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Let me just mention that this material reveals how some of the able and seemingly devoted Bible Students in Adventism are to a great extend influenced by the writings of Tillich and Anders Nygren. Nygren was influenced by Augustine of Hippo and the "pagan" church father Marcion and with them he found some of his nuggets of wisdom.

You may not have read any of these writers and yet be influenced by their philosophies through influential teachers in our system.

Even if we claim we are only reading our Bibles, such claims can be false. APL reads his Bible influenced by Our Pioneers, just like anyone else reads their Bibles through their own philosophy of life.

From what I have gathered through my studies I find some of these methods used by the Neo Orthodox movement in their futile attempt to go "back-to-the Bible".

I am not here trying to defend APL, just referring to his posts.

A quote by AT Jones:Interesting no? by heredity, he was laden with sin.

EJ Waggoner:

"The Editor's Private Corner. Compassed with Infirmity" The Present Truth 19, 6.

E. J. Waggoner

"As a student of the Lord's word, and very desirous to ascertain the truth upon all essential points of Christian faith, I should be glad of your reasons for applying Hebrews 5:2 to our Saviour. I have always understood the text to teach that the Jewish priest, while called of God to offer an offering for sins on behalf of the worshippers, had likewise to offer for himself a similar offering; and the words in Hebrews 5:3, 'by reason hereof he ought' are based upon the fact stated in Hebrews 5:2, that like the ones he ministers for, he himself is compassed with infirmity (imperfection). Our High Priest did not in any way partake of the fallen human nature, like the Jewish priests. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, but not in sinful flesh, or flesh full of sins. My real thought is, 'that the Word (Logos) was made flesh' before sin entered, or otherwise how could He have been a ransom price for Adam, and the race condemned in him?" {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.1}

Your question opens up the heart of the Gospel; but although many pages would not suffice to give an exhaustive statement, a very little consideration of the word will make it plain. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.2}

If we take up the last part of your question first, we shall get at it in the most logical manner. Your "real thought" that the Word was made flesh before sin entered, is correct; for even as it was by the Word of the Lord that the heavens were made, so it was by that same Word, that man was brought into being. The Word that was made flesh, is the word that was in the beginning with God, and was God, without which not one thing was made. The perfect man is the man who shares the fulness which is bestowed freely upon all without God man is incomplete; it takes God in man to make a whole man. Everybody will see this who recognises the identity of the words, wholeness, and holiness. A holy man is simply a whole man, a man who is made complete in Christ. Adam was a complete, perfect man; because, in him the Word of life that was from the beginning, was fully manifested. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.3}

But Adam fell, he deliberately cast off his allegiance to God; yet God did not forsake him, the Word still dwelt among men, although not in its fulness of grace and truth, because held down in unrighteousness. Thus it is that the word of truth is the Gospel of our salvation. You ask how the Word could have been a ransom price for Adam and the race condemned in him, if is were not made flesh before sin entered? I ask how it could have been a ransom for the race if it had not remained among men after sin entered? The love of God toward men is shown in that He has not forsaken us in our fallen condition. If it were not so, we should not be alive to tell the tale. He is our life. He who would raise fallen man, must come where he is. He is made what we are, in order that we may be made what He is. He comes into us, suffering the death which He did not deserve, in order that we may enjoy the life that we did not deserve. And this He does, not arbitrarily, but because from the very fact of our existence He is one with us. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.4}

Your statement that our High Priest did not in any way partake of the fallen human nature, like the Jewish priest, is an unsupported assertion, and contrary to the Scripture. Read the words of the Lord to Moses: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deuteronomy 18:18. So we read the words of the Lord in Psalms 89:19; "I have laid help upon One that is mighty; I have exalted One chosen out of the people." Now mark well, this does not say that Jesus was sinful. His everlasting glory is, that from the height of heaven He stooped and came down and took upon Himself man's sinfulness, and yet remained sinless. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.5}

Read the testimony in Isaiah 53:4; Isaiah 53:6 : "He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:" or, as quoted in Matthew 8:17, "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." "The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all," or, as given in the margin, "has made the iniquity of us all to meet on Him." This is not a mere figure of speech; it is a statement of an actual fact, a reality. He is the Lamb of God who bears the sin of the world. John 1:29 (margin). The sin of the world is the sin that is common in the world. He had it all on Him in fullest measure, yet never once did He yield to it in the slightest degree. This is our hope, our victory; it is our only hope, and the only basis on which we can have any hope. For if there were a gulf between Him and us, if He were at a distance from us, if He occupied the "I-am-holier-than-thou" position, standing off in faith that knows nothing of our weakness, and the conflicts; that we have to wage, there would be no hope for us. We should have laid upon us the impossible task of lifting ourselves up to His level, before we could be united in Him, but it is not so. He that ascended up far above all heavens, is the One who first descended into the lower parts of the earth. He went down to the depths to which man had fallen, in order that man may be raised to the height of His glorious righteousness. And because this marvel of righteousness was manifested in Jesus of Nazareth, a man born of woman, born of the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, every man born of woman may, if he believes, have that same perfect righteousness, perfect deliverance from sin. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.6}

I know the play that is commonly made upon the word "likeness," in the text which says that, "Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh." I do not mean to indicate by the word play, that there is any intentional trifling with the Scripture. But a reference to the same word in Romans 5:14 will help us to see that it does not mean something like, yet not like. Thus in the text just referred to we read that "death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the similitude [likeness] of Adam's transgression." This, it is evident, is not intended to convey the idea, that the sin of Adam is different from the sin of the rest of mankind, for we all are sharers in his sin. Still more evident is this in the sixth of Romans, where we read "If we have been planted together in the likeness of His death; we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection." Comparing this with the third verse, which says that "we are baptized into His death," with the sixth verse, which says that "our old man is crucified with Him," and with the eighth verse which says that "we are dead with Christ," we see that this expression "in the likeness of His death," means identity. We share His death, that we may share His life. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.7}

Still more plainly does this appear from the second chapter of Hebrews, verses eleven and fourteen. "Both He that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren." "Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood He also Himself likewise took part of the same." Nothing could be more emphatic than this: He partakes of the same flesh and blood that the children have, whom He came to save. He took upon Him the seed of Abraham. He is the Seed of the woman, and in order to make this central truth of the Gospel emphatic, and to keep it ever before the minds of mankind, He always spoke of Himself as the Son of man. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 84.8}

If there were a difference between the nature of Christ, and that of man, that which we read in Hebrews 5:7, would be but a farce. "In the days of His flesh, He offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death." He did not do this for nothing: He did not do this merely as an example to show us what we ought to do. But He did it through the eternal Spirit, that by that same Spirit He might be the Author of eternal salvation to all that trust Him. And how about Him at the present time? He is our High Priest in the heavenly places at the right hand of God, yet He is on earth in our flesh, even in our sinful flesh. "For the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, say not in thine heart, who shall ascend into heaven? (that is to bring up Christ again from the dead). But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart; that is, the Word of faith which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:6-9. If He were not still on earth (by the Spirit of course) among us, dwelling in us, there would be no hope of salvation to any human being; but our hope, our only hops, our all sufficiency hope, is this, that every weakness which would cause us to stumble and fall is upon Him, and if we but see and confess this continually, allowing Him to do that for which He is in the flesh, He is abundantly able to keep us from falling. Although in the heavens, He is still compassed with infirmity, even with our infirmity. Our great High Priest that is passed into the heavens is still touched with the feeling of our infirmity. This is why we can come with boldness to the throne of grace, assured that we shall find mercy and grace to help in time of need. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 85.1}

There seems to be the idea that it is derogatory to Christ's character, to say that He has come in sinful flesh. I have heard a professed Christian express the same thing to me, saying that the idea that Christ was born of woman was repugnant to him; he felt that it was debasing to Christ. What a false conception! It is in the highest degree honourable to Him that He can be compassed with infirmity, yet not fall, that He can have all the sin of the world upon Him, yet not be defiled. It is this that makes Him the gloriously complete Saviour; this will be His glory to all eternity.
{February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 85.2}

Aside from all this, my reason for applying Hebrews 5:2 to Christ, is that He is the subject of the discourse. That which is stated in that verse is said to apply to every high priest taken from among men, who is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, and this to emphatically true of Christ. All this, however, will receive fuller consideration, as we proceed in our study of Hebrews in the Bible class. {February 5, 1903 EJW, PTUK 85.3}