APL,

Why are you so hesitant to speak clearly?

I will assume you mean to say that you believe both EJ Waggoner and Ellen White claimed God will not punish.

If you do not believe this, I am certain you will not hesitate to contradict me.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

People like to touch the hot stove just to satisfy their curiosity, what can you do.

The post below by Green Cochoa that was posted on page 1 of this thread contains Bible references and quotes that clearly tells me that God does punish, which at times he does directly Himself and which at other times He impresses others to do the actual punishing.

In the case of the end of the 1,000 years in which He resurrect those who rejected Him from their graves, etc., He will directly punish them by raining down fire from the sky upon them that will utterly consume them, leaving neither root nor branch in reference to the fact that there isn't any return to life from that 2nd death experience.

Here also is a very clear series of quotes by Mountain Man that he posted in page 2 of this thread.

If anybody posting here now hasn't read through this long thread, then I suggest doing that.

Daryl - please don't leave out the part where he will miraculously keep the sinners alive, so they can suffer for days, but He HAS to punish them the right amount of time!

But then we read, Numbers 21:6 "And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died." THERE - God sent the serpents, right? That's what MY Bible says. It must be exactly as it says. Or is it? EGW: Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}

OK - which is it? God sent the serpents, or God removed his hand of protection. If the latter, then what about all the other quotes, and I have a lot of them, which say God does this or that, is it in reality, God withdrawing His protection, then all hell breaks lose? God is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. God is also not the executioner (GC36). But Daryl, Green, and Rosangela say God is the executioner. WHICH IS IT?

Revelation 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The 4 angels have power to hard the earth. HOW do they harm the earth? They just stop doing what they are currently doing. Which is, they are protecting the earth. When they stop, the harm comes. EXACTLY as EGW says in GC36.

Yes, God at times uses and sends serpents, and at other times, God rains down fire and brimstone from the sky, which He did to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Let us, therefore, not limit God to how He will choose to punish and what He will choose to use to punish.

Sinner will receive punishment. THE question is how. How did God send the serpents? HOW did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Romans 1 Defines God's wrath. Hosea 11:8 gives us insight to Sodom and Gomorrah. The destruction of Jerusalem gives us more evidence on how God will punish. And understand this from the words of EGW in COL 84, "God destroys no man".

What do you mean by asking how God sent the serpents and how He destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah?

Now did He do these things?

Daryl,

You may not have been deeply involved in the discussion that took place mostly between Mountain Man and Tom a few years ago, but APL represents a reincarnation of Tom's philosophies. The idea is that God can do no harm. He withdraws His protection, and all the evils happen--from a non-God source.

Unfortunately, this "world view" is fraught with errors. It is built upon castles of sand, as it were, for it begins by improper definitions. The following terms must all be interpreted improperly for this theory to gain solid acceptance:

arbitrary
evil
good
hate
judgment
justice
love
punishment
righteousness
sin
suffering
vengeance

Once all of these concepts presented above, or even a substantial quantity of them, are re-aligned from their correct perspectives and meanings, it is a simple matter to see Satan's point of view that God is not fair, not just, and not loving if He were to ever judge righteously in executing judgment. All judgment or punishment, if it comes from God directly, is looked upon as "arbitrary," just as Satan himself would like people to see it.

The people who accept this ideology then turn the facts on their face and point to those who still believe the truth as "misrepresenting the character of God." In actual fact, the reverse is true.

I believe this worldview is part of Satan's multi-fold attack upon the theology of the church and its understanding of God's truths for these last days. While other parts of Satan's multi-frontal attack are aimed at undermining or destroying beliefs in creation (evolution), Gospel order (women's ordination), God's law (modern Bible versions), true worship (spiritual formations, contemporary music, etc.), and so on, this doctrine of "God will not punish with death" comes in direct contradiction to the first thrust of the third (3rd) angel's message given in Revelation 14.

Satan knows time is short. He understands the prophecies. He knows it's almost time for that message to be proclaimed with power. This is his attempt to weaken it before it starts.

This belief that God would never hurt anybody, let alone kill anyone, has a certain attractiveness. It is appealing to the mind to think that God will always have mercy. It's almost a "second-chance" concept--because it encourages the sinner to think that no matter how much he or she sins, God will never bring those sins to judgment, but will have abundant grace to pardon. This, then, reduces the willpower to wrestle against sin, for it lessens the gravity of it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.