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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15357
08/31/05 03:45 AM
08/31/05 03:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I asked you this question: quote:
I take it from your response that you do not reject the idea that what I suggested is possible, but you don't see what difference it would make. If I understanding that correctly?
I would like to know if I'm understanding you correctly on this point (which is, the flood could have been caused by God's removing His protecting hand from the earth's crust, which allowed the waters that were there the whole time to erupt)
-------------------------------------------------
(Regarding the Egyptian's drowing in the Red Sea)
R: No, because both the opening and the closing of the sea were artificial and arbitrary acts.
Tom: First of all, God is not arbitrary. Nothing God does is arbitrary. So the act was certainly not arbitrary.
Secondly, you write the act was artificial. If this act is "artificial" then so is every other act of God which protects us from the forces of nature. All the time God is "artificially" preventing us from being destroyed. We are just ignorant of what He is "artificially" doing.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15358
08/31/05 03:51 AM
08/31/05 03:51 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:I think the point you're wanting to make in the comment is that God would be no less cruel under the hypothesis that He permitted those who oppose Him to die by withdrawing His protecting and sustaining hand rather than by actually killing them. Is that correct?
R:God is not cruel, but if you think that killing is always cruel, then letting die would be no less cruel.
Tom:I'm not following your train of thought. I have been arguing that
1)Force is not a principle of God's government, but rather a principle of Satan's government.
2)God does not destroy. He is the restorer;Satan is the destroyer.
3)Sin is a destructive force, from which God protects us, both in the natural and moral realm.
4)The laws of nature are not self-acting. God's sustaining hand is necessary to keep things working correctly.
5)When God is rejected, and He chooses to remove His sustaining and protecitve hand, ruin results.
I don't know how what you're talking about ties into these points. Perhaps I made some other point to which you are responding, but if this is the case, I don't know what it is. Or if it is to one of the above points, I also don't know how you point ties in.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15359
08/31/05 10:25 AM
08/31/05 10:25 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Nothing God does is arbitrary.
What is the basis for saying that?
I’m using “arbitrary” in the sense of “based on or subject to individual judgment or preference”. It was God’s judgment and preference which determined the opening and closing of the Red Sea, in the same way that it was His judgment and preference which determined the opening and closing of the Jordan River, or which determined the sun to stand still at Gibeon and the sun to turn back ten steps on the dial of Ahaz. God was not “protecting” the israelites from the normal course of the Red Sea or of the Jordan River, or from the normal course of the heavenly bodies. Human beings need protection when nature goes out of control, not when it’s following its normal course. The sea represented a difficulty to them at the moment, because they didn’t have ships, but not a threat; and God resolved the difficulty by arbitrarily doing something contrary to the normal course of nature.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15360
08/31/05 10:37 AM
08/31/05 10:37 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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You are making some pressupositions here with which I do not agree:
1)That God never destroys and this is a principle of His government
2)That killing is always bad and cruel
3)That killing is always an act of force
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15361
08/31/05 01:32 PM
08/31/05 01:32 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
I would like to know if I'm understanding you correctly on this point (which is, the flood could have been caused by God's removing His protecting hand from the earth's crust, which allowed the waters that were there the whole time to erupt)
Sorry, I had forgotten to answer this.
Before sin entered the universe, God already kept the heavenly bodies in their orbits, and it is He who upholds nature not only in our planet but also in unfallen planets. Of course in our planet nature was affected by sin, and this can be seen everywhere, but I see no concrete evidence in inspiration that God is supernaturally protecting earth’s inhabitants from the forces of nature, otherwise these would destroy them. I see no evidence that, if it wasn’t for God’s protecting hand, the water beneath earth’s crust would have destroyed the planet just after sin, and God had been restraining these waters for 2000 years before finally removing His restriction.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15362
08/31/05 05:02 PM
08/31/05 05:02 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
You are making some pressupositions here with which I do not agree:
1)That God never destroys and this is a principle of His government
2)That killing is always bad and cruel
3)That killing is always an act of force
I agree that I have been arguing the first part of the first item is true. I'm not aware that I have been arguing, or presupposing, 2) or 3). Actually, I would agree that killing is bad, as defined in the commandmant "Thou shalt not kill," but I'm not aware that I have been arguing that killing is always cruel nor that it is an act of force. This isn't to say that I necessarily disagree with this assertion, just that I'm not aware of having been arguing from these presuppositions.
To put it another way, I don't think any of the arguments I have been presenting would be lessened to any degree if one accepted the principle that killing is not necessarily always cruel or an act of force.
I am curious, however, as to how you would see killing occuring not as an act of force. The only thing that pops to my mind would be in the sense of permitting some destructive act to occur. Is this what you had in mind? Or something else?
Regarding the first part of the first item, that God never destroys,
quote:
"God destroys no one." Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.
quote:
"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.
quote:
"This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it." Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.
quote:
"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.
These seem to establish the point that God is not the destroyer, but rather Satan, and that destruction comes when God permits Satan to do His destructive work.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15363
08/31/05 05:15 PM
08/31/05 05:15 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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R:I see no concrete evidence in inspiration that God is supernaturally protecting earth’s inhabitants from the forces of nature, otherwise these would destroy them. The evidence I cited was from MH 416. quote:
God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will....It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain.
It should be clear that if God were to relax to the smallest degree in His work, that we would be destroyed. I take it that this suffices to demonstrate the sustaining portion of my comment. Now as to the protective.
quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one.(GC 266)
That this involves natural disasters is made evident by the following:
quote:
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer.(GC 589)
I mentioned in previous posts the existence of black holes, dying stars, the barren moon as evidence of the destructive power of sin in the natural realm. Given that such destructive power exists, it stands to reason that God is protecting us from this power when it doesn't affect us. Sin is a very powerful destructive force; it is not benign. We should be thankful to God for the protection He offers us from it.
quote:
I see no evidence that, if it wasn’t for God’s protecting hand, the water beneath earth’s crust would have destroyed the planet just after sin, and God had been restraining these waters for 2000 years before finally removing His restriction.
I wasn't asking if you saw evidence for it. I was asking if you agreed that it was possible. To be specific, is it possible that there were forces which would have opened the earth's crust, setting into motion events which would cause the flood? We know that all creation groans, and has been greatly affected by sin, to the extent that there are carnivores, poisons, earthquakes, valcanos, tsunamis and many other things which God did not create.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15364
08/31/05 06:56 PM
08/31/05 06:56 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:Nothing God does is arbitrary. R:What is the basis for saying that? Tom:Because God is not arbitrary. quote:
God loves His creatures with a love that is both tender and strong. He has established the laws of nature, but His laws are not arbitrary exactions. Every "thou shalt not," whether in physical or moral law, contains or implies a promise. If it is obeyed, blessings will attend our steps; if it is disobeyed, the result is danger and unhappiness. The laws of God are designed to bring His people closer to Himself. He will save them from the evil and lead them to the good if they will be led, but force them He never will. (AG 266)
From the beginning it has been Satan's studied plan to cause men to forget God, that he might secure them to himself. Therefore he has sought to misrepresent the character of God, to lead men to cherish a false conception of Him. The Creator has been presented to their minds as clothed with the attributes of the prince of evil himself--as arbitrary, severe, and unforgiving--that He might be feared, shunned, and even hated by men. (In Heavenly Places, page 8)
But strange fire has been offered in the use of harsh words, in self-importance, in self-exaltation, in
self-righteousness, in arbitrary authority, in domineering, in oppression, in restricting the liberty of God's people, binding them about by your plans and rules, which God has not framed, neither have they come into His mind. All these things are strange fire, unacknowledged by God, and are a continual misrepresentation of His character. (TM 357)
Many conceive of the Christian's God as a being whose attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. The Creator has been pictured as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgment upon them. In the minds of thousands, love and sympathy and tenderness are associated with the character of Christ, while God is regarded as the law-giver, inflexible, arbitrary, devoid of sympathy for the beings He has made. (Bible Training School, November 1, 1908)
When the earth was repeopled, men again lost the fear of God out of their hearts. Satan worked to array them against God. Thus he was seeking to gain full possession of the earth. He misinterpreted the character of God, and charged him with the very attributes that he himself possessed, while he concealed his own character from them. He professed to be their best friend, one who was working so that God's arbitrary power should not bring them into abject slavery. Through fallen man he renewed his hostilities to God, and triumphed in the very face of Heaven. (RH 8/14/00)
Satan works to make God appear arbitrary, but He isn't. He follows the principles of His government, which is the outworking of His character. Everything He does is for the good of His creatures.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15365
08/31/05 07:23 PM
08/31/05 07:23 PM
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Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 449
England
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To me this entire thing seems silly, being that God uses and will use His DESTROYING ANGELS to destroy sinners...
Ezekiel 9:
1: He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
2: And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
3: And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4: And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5: And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
7: And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
8: And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
9: Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
10: And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
11: And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15366
08/31/05 07:39 PM
08/31/05 07:39 PM
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Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 449
England
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WHO DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE DOING THIS DESTRUCTION?
Rv:20:9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rv:20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
From "Modern Revivals" in Great Controversy:
"Affiliated to the dangers already named is the danger of underestimating the justice of God. The tendency of the modern pulpit is to strain out the divine justice from the divine benevolence, to sink benevolence into a sentiment rather than exalt it into a principle. The new theological prism puts asunder what God has joined together. Is the divine law a good or an evil? It is a good. Then justice is good; for it is a disposition to execute the law. From the habit of underrating the divine law and justice, the extent and demerit of human disobedience, men easily slide into the habit of underestimating the grace which has provided an atonement for sin." Thus the gospel loses its value and importance in the minds of men, and soon they are ready practically to cast aside the Bible itself. "
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