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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#153707
06/28/13 11:59 AM
06/28/13 11:59 AM
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SDA
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God's punishment is just like His wrath. If this were true, we'd all be in big trouble. Jonah was punished--but he did not see God's wrath. David was punished--but he did not see God's wrath. Cain was punished--but he did not see God's wrath. Adam and Eve were punished--but without seeing God's wrath. If you were to see God's wrath, you would not likely survive it. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153712
06/28/13 12:36 PM
06/28/13 12:36 PM
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Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Is revealed - present tense. God’s displeasure against sin is also being revealed in the condition of mankind. The debasing vices and deliberate wickedness to which the sinner is given over ( Romans 1:24-32), prove God’s condemnation and punishment of sin. Paul’s preaching of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel ( Romans 1:17) also serves to reveal the wrath of God more clearly than ever before.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Daryl]
#153715
06/28/13 12:48 PM
06/28/13 12:48 PM
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No, the Bible was only quoting what somebody said, like the Insurance Companies do today as an exemption clause. Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and has burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell you.
"The fire of God". My Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. I've seen that used in the past. But doesn't the Bible always quote someone else?
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153716
06/28/13 12:58 PM
06/28/13 12:58 PM
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APL,
Please tell me how God ....
If it were possible those questions were answered to your satisfaction, would you be satisfied? (There's one for you, 'I'm satisfied, but not satisfied'!) Would it make a difference? Or would you continually have yet more and more questions you demand to have answered because you would still believe God kills?
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#153717
06/28/13 01:34 PM
06/28/13 01:34 PM
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Green - I don't have all the answers, does that surprise you?, But I have looked at these stories and have some ideas from the Bible and science. You did not mention the quail incident or the 185, 000 Assyrians. With all these stories, I need to take all the other stories in the Bible, and then line them up. Have your read Deuteronomy 32 for example? How did God kill Nadab and Abihu from "natural causes?" The Bible is clear. Ellen White is clear. If Satan inhabited the Most Holy Place, or the Ark of the Covenant, then God was too weak to be worth worshiping, for that was GOD'S abode. No, God slew them. Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. Nadab and Abihu were men in holy office; but by the use of wine their minds became so clouded that they could not distinguish between sacred and common things. By the offering of “strange fire” they disregarded God's command, and were slain by his judgments. {CTBH 28.4}
Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, who ministered in the holy office of priesthood, partook freely of wine and, as was their usual custom, went in to minister before the Lord. The priests who burned incense before the Lord were required to use the fire of God's kindling, which burned day and night and was never extinguished. God gave explicit directions how every part of His service should be conducted, that all connected with His sacred worship might be in accordance with His holy character. And any deviation from the express directions of God in connection with His holy service was punishable with death. {Con 80.1} Take the first one you listed, Korah, et al. Quite honestly, I don't think anything will change your mind. God directly punishes you say, though YOU throw out the obvious statements of EGW against the punishment come directly from God. Perhaps you are throwing out this one? These men of Israel complained, and influenced the people to stand with them in rebellion, and even after God stretched forth His hand and swallowed up the wrong-doers, and the people fled to their tents in horror, their rebellion was not cured. The depth of their disaffection was made manifest even under the judgment of the Lord. The morning after the destruction of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram and their confederates, the people came to Moses and Aaron, saying, "Ye have killed the people of the Lord." For this false charge on the servants of God, thousands more were killed, for there was in them sin, exultation and presumptuous wickedness (Letter 12a, 1893). Or perhaps you must reject this one? ...And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men, then the Lord hath not sent me. But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit, then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord." As Moses ceased speaking, the earth opened and swallowed them up, and their tents, and all that pertained unto them. They went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the congregation. {1SP 300.3}
As the children of Israel heard the cry of the perishing ones, they fled at a great distance from them. They knew that they were, in a measure, guilty; for they had received the accusations against Moses and Aaron; and they were afraid that they should also perish with them. The judgment of God was not yet finished. A fire came from the cloud of glory, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. They were princes; that is, men generally of good judgment, and of influence in the congregation, men of renown. They were highly esteemed, and their judgment had often been sought in difficult matters. But they were affected by a wrong influence, and became envious, jealous, and rebellious. They perished not with Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, because they were not the first in rebellion. They were to see their end first, and have an opportunity of repenting of their crime. But they were not reconciled to the destruction of those wicked men; and the wrath of God came upon them, and destroyed them also. {1SP 301.1} How then does it happen as GC36 says, God withdraws his protection, and freedom demands that He must. Here are a few "Karst Hazard Assessment of Eastern Saudi Arabia", Natural Hazards 15:21-30, 1997 by Ammar A. Amin. Abstract at lease is online. Another, google the legend of Ubar on the Arabian trade routes. Another, "Subsidence and Sinkhole Hazard Assessment in the Southern Dead Sea Area, Jordan", Pure-Appl: geophysics, 162(2005) 221-248. Or this link, look at some of the pictures - HERE. If you get the idea, these Karst hazards are dangerous. There may be huge caverns with very thin coverings. If God miraculously maintains the integrity of the cave, as He did with the Children of Israels, water suppies, their food supplies, their cloths not wearing out, protection from serpents, etc, he also was protecting them from geologic hazards. Remove that protection, then what? You will say, yeah I have not proved anything. God gives us evidence, and evidence that appeals to the reason! Yet He has not removed all possibility of doubt. "Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who really desire to know the truth will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith. {SC 105.2}" I see evidence that the Korah episode is just like the fiery serpent episode, is just like Deuteronomy 32, is just like Saul, is just like the destruction of Jerusalem, and many more.  APL, you, likewise, cannot call that "diligent" which is unable to explain the portion of scripture under study. You can try to support your own views with your own texts, but when given a text that does not appear to agree with your view, diligence requires that you are able to explain that text too, and to fit it into the larger picture.
You try so hard to remove "God" from the picture as to make it all seem less than a miracle? That it was a "natural cause" from which these rebels died? Why does the Bible take so much effort to say it was NOT a normal death, but a "new thing?" Obviously, you must reject this supernatural connection. But the children of Israel knew what you refuse to believe. They knew it was God, and the fled in terror, lest they also be consumed. Of course, the "natural cause" of having some underground pit there that might open up at any moment does not explain very well how it would also close up after swallowing the three leaders. It also doesn't explain very well how a "natural" fire would have come and consumed the 250 princes who had been sympathetic to Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. As you can see, I am fully convinced that God worked in a supernatural way, a way calculated to show His Divinity in the action, to punish Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. I do not accept that God would have been desirous of teaching the people a concept such as.... YOU BETTER BEHAVE OR I'LL SEND YOU TO SATAN FOR YOUR DEATH! This whole "God withdraws His protection" theory that you espouse means basically that. You picture a God who destroys passively. I picture one who is actively in charge of every event on earth, and who can overrule them or permit them as His providence shall indicate. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153718
06/28/13 01:41 PM
06/28/13 01:41 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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God's punishment is just like His wrath. If this were true, we'd all be in big trouble. Jonah was punished--but he did not see God's wrath. David was punished--but he did not see God's wrath. Cain was punished--but he did not see God's wrath. Adam and Eve were punished--but without seeing God's wrath. If you were to see God's wrath, you would not likely survive it. Blessings, Green Cochoa. This is interesting, do the wicked survive God's punishment at the end?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: kland]
#153719
06/28/13 01:41 PM
06/28/13 01:41 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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No, the Bible was only quoting what somebody said, like the Insurance Companies do today as an exemption clause. Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and has burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell you.
"The fire of God". My Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. I've seen that used in the past. But doesn't the Bible always quote someone else? Who do you mean by "someone else?" In the case of the story of Job, the one being quoted is an unidentified witness to the scene. The Bible also quotes God Himself, in which I would not be calling Him merely "someone else," as if the words were no longer to be considered factual. For example, God is quoted in the Bible as saying: "But I will punish you according to the fruit of your doings, saith the LORD." I would have to believe, from that, that God will indeed punish us according to our works. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#153720
06/28/13 01:50 PM
06/28/13 01:50 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
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God's punishment is just like His wrath. If this were true, we'd all be in big trouble. Jonah was punished--but he did not see God's wrath. David was punished--but he did not see God's wrath. Cain was punished--but he did not see God's wrath. Adam and Eve were punished--but without seeing God's wrath. If you were to see God's wrath, you would not likely survive it. Blessings, Green Cochoa. This is interesting, do the wicked survive God's punishment at the end? No, of course not. They receive His wrath. That punishment is final. APL, part of your mental struggle in grasping these concepts seems to revolve around a fallacy of logic that see things as being "universally true." But there are degrees of things, and not everything is merely black or white. For example, a parent can punish a child in many, many ways--everything from giving the child the silent treatment, to a good sound flogging. Parents, like God, discipline in love (at least they are supposed to). But, punishment can be far more severe if the occasion merits it. Children who were rebellious, according to the Bible, were to be punished with death. Even this would have come far short of God's wrath. When God shows wrath, don't expect a pleasant, long-lasting life in its face. May we each be among the righteous who do not have His wrath against us. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#153721
06/28/13 01:54 PM
06/28/13 01:54 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Is revealed - present tense. God’s displeasure against sin is also being revealed in the condition of mankind. The debasing vices and deliberate wickedness to which the sinner is given over ( Romans 1:24-32), prove God’s condemnation and punishment of sin. Paul’s preaching of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel ( Romans 1:17) also serves to reveal the wrath of God more clearly than ever before. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; ... "Is come" -- present tense But the ark hadn't even been started yet. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: does God punish?
[Re: APL]
#153722
06/28/13 01:56 PM
06/28/13 01:56 PM
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SDA
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YOU BETTER BEHAVE OR I'LL SEND YOU TO SATAN FOR YOUR DEATH! Would it be better to paraphrase God speaking like this? "YOU BETTER BEHAVE OR I WILL TORTURE YOU TO DEATH." ******* STAFF EDIT *******Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
Last edited by Daryl; 07/16/13 11:46 PM. Reason: Staff Edit done.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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