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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15368
08/31/05 08:55 PM
08/31/05 08:55 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
To me this entire thing seems silly, being that God uses and will use His DESTROYING ANGELS to destroy sinners...
I don't think it's silly at all. I'm glad that others, pariticulary Rosangela, have been willing to dialog on this. There's nothing I can think of more important than understanding God's character.
The Great Controversy arose over God's character. The enemy has presented Him as harsh, unforgiving, stern and arbitrary. He (the enemy) is seeking to deceive men by investing his own evil characteristics to God.
The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal the Father, in order to set us right with Him.
It's very important that we understand God's character, the nature of sin, and the issues involved in the Great Controversy.
One way of looking at things sees sin as a hideous thing which will destroy all those who become involved in it. This destruction occurs because those who give themselves over to it cut themselves off from God. They voluntarily choose not to have anything to do with God, which, of course, leads to their death, since God alone is the source of life. God is constantly at work to draw us to Himself, whereby we may be healed, and to warn us from the folly of rejecting the principles of His government.
Another way of looking at things sees God working along different lines. The difference in looking at these things is what we have been pursuing in these threads.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15369
09/01/05 09:57 PM
09/01/05 09:57 PM
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SDA
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Doesn't Claudia have a valid point Tom? If the law is good, justice is also good. The distruction of sin and those who love sin more than God is just.
David said he hated the wicked with a perfect hatred. Was that an evil thought or an inspired thought? He counted himself an enemy of those who were enemies of God and a friend of those who were friends. Was that misguided? In my view David, a man after God's own heart, a man with a character similar to God's, expresses the balance very well in many of the Psalms between mercy and justice. How does what you are saying square with what David says about God and His character? I do not mean to put you on the defensive. I would just like to know what you think of some of the more passionate passages where David calls out to God to take up his cause and judge his persecutors.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15370
09/01/05 11:22 PM
09/01/05 11:22 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Claudia: Who do you think is going to be doing this destruction? Rv:20:9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rv:20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Tom: Thank you for your input Claudia. It's a bit ironic that Rev. 20:10 is THE proof text used by those who believe that hell is eternal. They argue that this is after all, what the text says. We argue that Scripture must be interpreted as a whole, and taking all of Scripture into consideration, that hell is not eternal, even though here it is. The ironic thing is that the same arguments they use are being used here, and the answer to the argument is the same. From The Desire of Ages we read: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
This brings out:
1)The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act of power from God, but rather something the wicked cause themselves.
2)The reap what they have sown.
3)They cut themselves off from life.
4)The glory of God, who is love, destroys them.
In DA 108 she writes that "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked."
In COL 84 she writes,
quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself.
Taking into account the above, it seems clear the answer to your question is that it is the wicked themselves who cause their destruction.
I'll respond to the GC Modern Revivals quote in the response to Mark's post.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15371
09/01/05 11:44 PM
09/01/05 11:44 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mark: Doesn't Claudia have a valid point Tom? If the law is good, justice is also good. Tom: I'm certainly in favor of justice. However, there is a difference between God's justice and man's justice. Man's idea of justice is eye for eye and tooth for tooth. It's based on retribution. However, God's idea of justice is based on love, mercy and compassion. quote:
18 Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you;And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
Blessed are all those who wait for Him.(Isa. 30:18)
God is a God of justice. Therefore He longs to be gracious to us.
quote:
"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.(Zech. 7:9)
This is God's idea of justice -- showing mercy and compassion.
The Great Controversy brings out that God exercises mercy and compassion in the judgement of the wicked. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. God allows the wicked their choice of death, and this is just.
Mark: The distruction of sin and those who love sin more than God is just.
Tom: Yes, this is true. However, the wicked do not die to some arbitrary action on God's part, but because they themselves choose to cut themselves off from life. The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked.
Note that God does not change, but it is the response of the wicked to God that causes their destruction. God does the same thing to them which gives life to the righteous; He reveals His wonderfulness.
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.(DA 764)
Mark: David said he hated the wicked with a perfect hatred. Was that an evil thought or an inspired thought?
Tom: Here's what Jesus said:
quote:
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shall love thy neighbor, and hate your enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.(Matthew 5:43-48)
Jesus Christ was THE revelation of God's character. "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son" (Testimonies for the Church, 8:286).
Mark: He counted himself an enemy of those who were enemies of God and a friend of those who were friends. Was that misguided? In my view David, a man after God's own heart, a man with a character similar to God's, expresses the balance very well in many of the Psalms between mercy and justice. How does what you are saying square with what David says about God and His character? I do not mean to put you on the defensive. I would just like to know what you think of some of the more passionate passages where David calls out to God to take up his cause and judge his persecutors.
Tom: I think Jesus Christ had a better understanding of God's character than David did. All that man needs to know of God, or can know of God, was revealed by Him.
I think Jesus Christ must be our starting place, our ending place, and our resting place for understanding God's character. All other revelation must be understood in the light of that glorious revelation. He was the Word of God, God's thought made audible. All other light pales compared to that light.
Regarding David's attitude, I think God is patient, and takes into account where we are in our walk with Him. David was a man of God, a man after God's own heart, as you point out. He also had a godly hatred of sin, and a godly love for righteousness.
However, it is Jesus Christ who is the ultimate revelation of God's character, and He taught us to love our enemies. He taught us, and showed us, that this is exactly what God does, even to the point of death, the death of the cross; even when that means not ever being resurrected (while in the throes of the misery of the cross, hope did not present the resurrection to Christ -- He felt His separation with His Father would be eternal).
I hope this adequately addresses your quesitons. If not, please follow up.
Thanks for your input!
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15372
09/02/05 12:52 PM
09/02/05 12:52 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
I am curious, however, as to how you would see killing occuring not as an act of force. The only thing that pops to my mind would be in the sense of permitting some destructive act to occur. Is this what you had in mind? Or something else?
When we kill our pets that are suffering too much would this be an act of force? Or of compassion?
quote:
"God destroys no one." Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.
The passage says, “God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence.” The clear meaning of the passage is that God is not responsible for the destruction of anyone, but the sinner is responsible for his own destruction.
quote:
Satan is the destroyer.
Satan is pleased to destroy. Of course God does not take pleasure in destroying. That’s why His destroying sinners is called His “strange act”.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15373
09/02/05 12:54 PM
09/02/05 12:54 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
To be specific, is it possible that there were forces which would have opened the earth's crust, setting into motion events which would cause the flood?
I don’t think it is impossible, but I also don’t think it is probable. Anyway, does it make any difference? EGW says that the flood occurred “to accomplish his [God’s] purposes” (ST, January 3, 1878). “His purposes” were “the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world” (Ibidem).
Now, I don’t think that it would make any difference if God had removed His protection or if He had “call[ed] forth His weapons to aid” (Ibidem) in this purpose; the purpose was the same – the death of those people, which was the only way to prevent sin from becoming an unchecked destructive force.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15374
09/02/05 12:57 PM
09/02/05 12:57 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Tom:Because God is not arbitrary.
I’ve explained that I’m not using the word “arbitrary” in the sense of “despotic”, but in the sense of “based on or subject to individual judgment or preference”.
If you don’t want to recognize this meaning of the word, just forget the word (I didn’ find any other which would fit here).
The fact is, it wasn’t Satan who killed the Egyptians, because it was God who commanded Moses to close the sea, and of course Moses opened and closed the sea by God’s power. It wasn’t nature which killed the Egyptians, but an alteration in the normal course of nature made by God Himself. So, who killed the Egyptians?
“The Egyptians dared to venture in the path God had prepared for his people, and angels of God went through their host and removed their chariot wheels. They were plagued. Their progress was very slow, and they began to be troubled. They remembered the judgments that the God of the Hebrews had brought upon them in Egypt, to compel them to let Israel go, and they thought that God might deliver them all into the hands of the Israelites. They decided that God was fighting for the Israelites, and they were terribly afraid, and were turning about to flee from them, when ‘the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. Thus the Lord saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. And Israel saw that great work which the Lord did upon the Egyptians; and the people feared the Lord, and believed the Lord, and his servant Moses.’” {1SP 209.2}
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15375
09/02/05 08:11 PM
09/02/05 08:11 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:To be specific, is it possible that there were forces which would have opened the earth's crust, setting into motion events which would cause the flood? R:I don’t think it is impossible, but I also don’t think it is probable. Tom:Thank you! That's the impression I was getting from your answers. R:Anyway, does it make any difference? Tom:Yes, it makes a very big difference. The purpose of the other thread ("Does it make any difference?") was to discuss these differences. I wrote a long post addressing this very question which you asked on that thread which has the date/time on my computer of August 30, 2005 10:00 AM (which I suspect will be a bit different on yours; but it's the third post in that thread, the first long one). This was the conclusion: quote:
So the general principles are:
1.Sin is a destructive force which requires positive action on God's part for us to be protected.
2.God must sustain us, our planet, the laws of nature, in order for things to function correctly.
So if God withdraws His protective or sustaining hand, then bad things happen. As to why it is different for ruin to occur as a result of God withdrawing His sustaining and protecting hand vs. His actually causing the ruin, in the one case, none of the principles of His government are violated, but in the other they are.
R:EGW says that the flood occurred “to accomplish his [God’s] purposes” (ST, January 3, 1878). “His purposes” were “the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world” (Ibidem).
Now, I don’t think that it would make any difference if God had removed His protection or if He had “call[ed] forth His weapons to aid” (Ibidem) in this purpose; the purpose was the same – the death of those people, which was the only way to prevent sin from becoming an unchecked destructive force.
Tom:It makes a difference because their are other principles involved, such as:
1)God is not the destroyer. Satan is the destroyer. God is the restorer.
2)Satan is attempting to deceive us by investing the Creator with his own attributes (e.g. being a destroyer).
3)All that man needs to know about God, or can know about God, has been revealed in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ never killed anybody, or in any way harmed anybody. When rejected, He simply departed.
4)Force is not a principle of God's government. Compelling force is found only under Satan's government.
5)Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power.
Under the interpretation I am suggesting, none of these principles are violated. Under the idea that God actively caused these things to happen, by voluntarily directing His own power in a destructive way, they all are.
Let me turn your question around on yourself and ask, if you do not feel it makes any difference, then why not just accept the interpretation I am suggesting? The fact that you argue so strenuously for the other interpretation suggests that you DO feel it makes a difference.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15376
09/02/05 08:23 PM
09/02/05 08:23 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:Because God is not arbitrary. R:I’ve explained that I’m not using the word “arbitrary” in the sense of “despotic”, but in the sense of “based on or subject to individual judgment or preference”. If you don’t want to recognize this meaning of the word, just forget the word (I didn’ find any other which would fit here). Tom:I agree with your use of the word, which is its standard usage. I was using it the same way. God, using this definition of the term, is not arbitrary. The Spirit of Prophesy uses the word in the same way. If you look through her writings, I would be very surprised (shocked, in fact) if you see her ever use the word arbitrary in conjunction with God. She even argues that it is Satan's purpose to show that God is arbitrary. This would seem to me to be sufficient to establish the point that He is not. R:The fact is, it wasn’t Satan who killed the Egyptians, because it was God who commanded Moses to close the sea, and of course Moses opened and closed the sea by God’s power. It wasn’t nature which killed the Egyptians, but an alteration in the normal course of nature made by God Himself. So, who killed the Egyptians? Tom:Addressing this very point, according to EGW it was not God: quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. (COL 84, 85)
The same exact principles were at work which are always at work. God just made them obvious, so all can see.
It is always by God's power that nature functions. It is not self-acting. There is no "normal" course of nature which doesn't involve God's sustaining and protective power. The Egyptians were killed when God withdrew His protection from the destructive forces from which He was protecting those who had not rejected Him. There's no difference in principle between this and any other episode in which those who have rejected God's grace are destroyed, including at the end of time.
It makes sense that this should be the case, because God is the same yesterday, today and forever. There is no difference between God's actions on the Red Sea, at the end of time, and on the cross. It's one God, who acts the same way, all the time. He goes about doing good. When He is rejected, He departs. This results in the ruin of those who reject Him.
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