Romans 5:12 Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:

Do you still claim that the first death is not because of sin?

You are saying sin does not cause the first death. Interesting. You go on to make the claim that the if the first death is cause by sin then the wage is paid. This comes from your legal model of the overall problem. If you murder me, did I not then die because of sin? Yes. Was my death due to my own sin in that situation? No. Sickness and disease are caused by sin. If I die by polio as my cousin did, this was caused by sin. But was it her "guilt" to use your legal term? No. All are subject to the first death, wicked and righteous alike. The first death came into the world by sin. No sin, no death. But this is not the wage of sin. The second death is the wage of sin, Romans 6:23, James 1:15. There is only one person that has died the death of a sinner, Jesus Christ. Christ died the death that is the result of sin, the second death. Christ demonstrated clearly how God is involved in the second death, showing how SIN does pay its wage, death. Look to Jesus.

I'm tiring of these "debate tactics." I never once made such a claim. You lie to say that I did.

If you will notice, I'm acknowledging the fact that sin causes the death of the sinner. My question to you, which you are so willing to dance circles around to keep from answering it (for you cannot, it seems), is why does the sinner die twice?

It's a simple question. You seem unwilling to answer it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Debate tactics? It was you that made the statement, 'Where in the Bible does it say "The wages of sin is a double death"?'


Why does a sinner die at all? I have been consistent with my answer. ALL DEATH is caused by sin. And I mean ALL. Human, animal and plant. The Bible is clear that there are two deaths for humans. The first death is the result of Adam's sin and all are subject to it. The second death is the result of one's own sin and without Christ, we will die that death. My answer has been consistent.

That's the clearest you've come out with an answer on this. Thank you.

So, to your view, we all die the first death for someone else's sin. I strongly disagree. To my mind, that would be the epitome of unfairness and injustice on the part of God, the same God who says the son will not be punished for the father's sin.



Of course, that text is talking about DNA, right? Where else does a "son" get his DNA but from his "father?" So, obviously, the DNA itself is not included in the "iniquity."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It is not my view, it is the Biblical view. Romans 5:12 Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men,

True or false, all will die the first death? True. Why are we subject to the first death? Adam's sin.

You then quote Ezekiel 18. Are these verses speaking primarily of the first death of second in your mind? It is speaking of the the second death.

Did Jesus die the first or second death? Is Christ's death the epitome of unfairness and injustice to your mind?

APL,

The correct logic is presented in the very text you quoted.

A) Sin entered this world by one man;
B) Death came in by sin;
C) Therefore, all people die.

People die for their sin, because "the wages of sin is death." You cannot transgress God's law for me any more than I can sin for you. We are each held accountable for our own sins. You sin, you die. Adam didn't sin to make you die. You sinned to make you die. Adam's sin, however, was contagious, and you were acquainted with sin because he sinned. His sin introduced the whole world to sin. That is what the text in Romans is teaching us.

Those who sin are not given access to the Tree of Life, which alone can prolong our lives to be able to live forever. However, certain ones of God's people have, by the path of obedience, been granted this access. Notably, we think of Enoch and Elijah, who did not even die, but were taken directly to Heaven.

Did they then "die" for their sin? No. Their penalty was borne by Christ, and it might be said that had Christ failed, they would have lost their Heavenly futures as well. Christ paid the penalty for sin. Sin requires death. We may escape that death through Christ.

Even the so-called "first-death" is not a requirement, per se. Many will reach Heaven having never tasted death at all, because Christ has borne their penalty.

So, we are back to square one: Why will the wicked die twice? The answer is exceedingly simple--and has everything to do with the topic of this thread.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

FALSE.

See my post above for the details.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Commenting on Romans 5:12...

Green - this is one verse. I think the interpretation is clear, but that is because I try to take all the other scripture references which refer to it. Such as:
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came on all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came on all men to justification of life.
How many? "all men". Don't like that one? How about this one:
1 Corinthians 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

How many? In Adam "ALL" die, but in Christ ALL shall be made alive. What does EGW say? Adam's sin brought death on how may of the human race? The WHOLE race. The first death is a result of Adam's sin. The "wages of sin" spoken of in Romans 6:23 is speaking particularly of the second death. Don't believe me, hear Ellen speak:

So what is the logic in these quotations?
1) Sin entered the world though Adam and death by sin.
2) ALL die in consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the WHOLE human race
4) ALL nature is marred by sin, and is subject to decay, because of Adam's sin
3) The first death is caused by sin, Adam's sin.
6) The "wages of sin" is the Second death.

Why is it the whole human race dies because of Adam's sin? Why is it all life on this planet is marred by Adam's sin?

The reason the whole human race dies because of Adam's sin has already been mentioned here.

If in Christ, all men are made alive, why isn't everyone saved?

Paul uses terms broadly, not focusing on "mere details." We have to be careful about interpreting his writings that we do not miss the picture he is trying to present.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, your reply appears to me that you did not read my last post, at all. It is as if you ignored the supporting material.

Green: The reason the whole human race dies because of Adam's sin has already been mentioned here.

You said previously: People die for their sin, because "the wages of sin is death." You cannot transgress God's law for me any more than I can sin for you. We are each held accountable for our own sins. You sin, you die. Adam didn't sin to make you die. You sinned to make you die. Adam's sin, however, was contagious, and you were acquainted with sin because he sinned. His sin introduced the whole world to sin. That is what the text in Romans is teaching us.

Ellen White: The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1} 
We all die the first death because of Adam's transgression. Your understanding continues to believe that if a child is born and then wisked away from this planet, that they would never die. That is unless somehow Adam's transgression changed us in reality, such as in the DNA? Sin is contageous (how many EGW quotes would you like?) Is the first death an imposed penalty by God? Does God has to cause the first death? If He does not cause the first death directly, does he cause the second death directly? If so, WHY? To punish?

Green: If in Christ, all men are made alive, why isn't everyone saved? 

Again - did you read the post? Ellen White is very clear. "All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28-29.  "

That's pretty clear why all are made alive and that there is not a univeral salvation.


Green: Paul uses terms broadly, not focusing on "mere details." We have to be careful about interpreting his writings that we do not miss the picture he is trying to present.

Are Ellen White's quotes equally obscure to you? On one point I agree with you!! We do need to interpret the Bible (not just Paul) aright so we do not miss the picture that it is trying to present.

The rirst death is caused by sin. But the wages of sin spoken in Romans 6:23 is the second death, not the first.

What did the Advenstist Pioneers believe about the first and second death? Is the first death the wages of sin? Is the first death cause by Adam's sin? Let's see!

Uriah Smith: Two deaths are here unmistakably brought to view: first, death common to this state of being, which all share alike, good and bad, which is called the first, or temporal, death; secondly, a future death to be inflicted on the following conditions: if a person dies the first death in a state of sin, that is, with sins upon him of which he does not repent before he dies, then for, or because of, those sins that he has committed, he shall die again. Another death awaits him. The first death was not, as has already bee noticed, for his personal transgressions; for this is entailed upon all alike through Adam, both good and bad. But every one is to die for his own sins unless he repents. How is this to be brought about? - He is to be raised from the first death and judged; and if sins are then found upon him, for those sins he suffers the same penalty, - death; and being thus reduced to death again, he will forever remain dead; for from this death there is no release nor redemption provided. This is the "second death," and is the "everlasting punishment" in store for all the workers of iniquity. {1897 UrS, HHMLD 266.1}

JH Waggoner: The Scriptures speak of a "second death," which the unholy shall suffer. The first death they suffered because of Adam's sin; that they could not avoid. The second death they suffer because of their own sin; that they could have avoided if they would. Jesus, at an immense sacrifice, a sacrifice which no finite mind can comprehend, opened the way to eternal life, but they proved both ungrateful to Him and unwise for themselves. With all the provision of His grace within their reach, they willfully plunge down to everlasting ruin. {1891 JHW, ATNM 101.3}

Josiah Litch: One sinned, and by that one sin death entered into the world, and is passed upon all men. Adam, becoming mortal by sin, could not transmit to his posterity what he did not possess, immortality in the body. [interesting, no?] They, partaking of and living by his blood, must be subject to the same late, death: cessation of life by the action of Adam's blood. There being no provision in the law by which this penalty could be commuted, the culprit must remain forever in death, unless some atonement could be made. Such an atonement Christ made when "he bore our sins in his own body on the tree, and tasted death for every man." {1842 JoL, PREX1 15.2}

John Loughborough: This death which is here spoken of as the wages of sin, cannot be the death men die in Adam; for that death is a consequent on the sin of Adam, and not our own sins.

AT Jones: Therefore, just as far as the first Adam reaches man, so far the second Adam reaches man. The first Adam brought man under the condemnation of sin, even unto death; the second Adam's righteousness undoes that, and makes every man live again. As soon as Adam sinned, God gave him a second chance, and set him free to choose which master he would have. Since that time every man is free to choose which way he will go; therefore he is responsible for his own individual sins. And when Jesus Christ has set us all free from the sin and the death which came upon us from the first Adam, that freedom is for every man; and every man can have it for the choosing. {February 21, 1895 N/A, GCB 269.6}