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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153459
06/21/13 11:52 AM
06/21/13 11:52 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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When Christ overthrew the money tables, not the people.
"He looked upon me with a frown, and turned His face from me."
He turned His face, He did not strike out. Of course. I've never said otherwise. What I said is that the manifestation of His displeasure against sin (and I've always emphasized that) causes an unbearable anguish in the sinner. And what I said is that He could avoid this if He so wished by not resurrecting the wicked or by abstaining from this manifestation of displeasure.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#153478
06/21/13 11:58 PM
06/21/13 11:58 PM
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Christ came into the world the first time not to condemn but to save, however, Christ will have completed his IJ before coming the 2nd time to reward both those who have accepted Him and rejected Him.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153536
06/23/13 05:20 AM
06/23/13 05:20 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Of all the sins that God will punish, none are more grievous in His sight than those that encourage others to do evil. ... {PP 323.3} By beholding, we become changed. If we think that God will actively torture sinners, then we will do the same. It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature, that by beholding, we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. {GC88 555.2} You make the allegation that we should never think that God would punish or do anything against sinners (and, by the way, using the word "torture" is not fair, as none of us are using that word to speak of what God will do). Your allegation is unfounded, according to the Bible. Have you read the book of Job lately? What happened to Job? His was a special case--God permitted the devil to trouble Job. The devil caused all of Job's trials. But notice what the Bible says about Job's perspective and reaction to it. This is remarkable. Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. Job gave GOD the credit for having done to him what actually SATAN had done. But the record tells us that in doing this very thing, saying God had done it all to him, "Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." Wow. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#153538
06/23/13 06:28 AM
06/23/13 06:28 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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I have read the book of Job recently. I think Job knew the character of God quite well! Thus the archfiend clothes with his own attributes the Creator and Benefactor of mankind. Cruelty is satanic. God is love; and all that He created was pure, holy, and lovely, until sin was brought in by the first great rebel. Satan himself is the enemy who tempts man to sin, and then destroys him if he can; and when he has made sure of his victim, then he exults in the ruin he has wrought. If permitted, he would sweep the entire race into his net. Were it not for the interposition of divine power, not one son or daughter of Adam would escape. {GC 534.2}
Satan is seeking to overcome men today, as he overcame our first parents, by shaking their confidence in their Creator and leading them to doubt the wisdom of His government and the justice of His laws. Satan and his emissaries represent God as even worse than themselves, in order to justify their own malignity and rebellion. The great deceiver endeavors to shift his own horrible cruelty of character upon our heavenly Father, that he may cause himself to appear as one greatly wronged by his expulsion from heaven because he would not submit to so unjust a governor. He presents before the world the liberty which they may enjoy under his mild sway, in contrast with the bondage imposed by the stern decrees of Jehovah. Thus he succeeds in luring souls away from their allegiance to God. {GC 534.3} Through it all, this is what Job said: Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. Would that we be as faithful as Job.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153685
06/26/13 11:55 PM
06/26/13 11:55 PM
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Norman - how does Christ death save us? This was the post from which Rosangela used to create this thread. The question rightly implies that Christ's death saves us, but His death alone doesn't save us, but it was also His perfect sinless life, His sacrificial death, and also His resurrection that saves us, if we accept all that He has done for us through His sinless life, His sacrificial death, and His resurrection.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Daryl]
#153847
07/02/13 12:17 AM
07/02/13 12:17 AM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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What saves us? - implies that we are saved, and then the question is from what are we saved and what does this salvation do to us? A precious answer is found in these words by Ellen White: No matter how high the profession, he whose heart is not filled with love for God and his fellow men is not a true disciple of Christ. Though he should possess great faith and have power even to work miracles, yet without love his faith would be worthless. He might display great liberality; but should he, from some other motive than genuine love, bestow all his goods to feed the poor, the act would not commend him to the favor of God. In his zeal he might even meet a martyr’s death, yet if not actuated by love, he would be regarded by God as a deluded enthusiast or an ambitious hypocrite. {AA 318.2} This tells us that it is love that saves us, and it implies that we are saved from hatred to love.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Johann]
#153850
07/02/13 01:15 AM
07/02/13 01:15 AM
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Yes, His love for us was why He came the 1st time, lived a perfect life for us, died for us, and intercedes for us.
Our response to all of the above is to love Him and accept all He has done. If we love Him, the result will be obedience to all of His commandments. "If you love me, keep my commandments."
This is what saves us.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Daryl]
#153881
07/02/13 09:38 PM
07/02/13 09:38 PM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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This is the kind of reply I was expecting, but is it true? Doesn't this make Jesus our example rather than our Redeemer? Yes, He is our example, but does that save us? In some of the manuscripts John 14:15 actually says: "If you love me you would already be keeping my commandments." Because it is in aorist subj. We are not to serve God as if we were not human, but we are to serve Him in the nature we have, that has been redeemed by the Son of God; through the righteousness of Christ we shall stand before God pardoned, and as though we had never sinned. We will never gain strength in considering what we might do if we were angels. We are to turn in faith to Jesus Christ, and show our love to God through obedience to His commands (Manuscript 1, 1892). {5BC 1142.5}
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Johann]
#153884
07/02/13 11:45 PM
07/02/13 11:45 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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This tells us that it is love that saves us, and it implies that we are saved from hatred to love. I would say we are saved from selfishness to love. But the problem in these discussions lies, perhaps, in the concept of love.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: Rosangela]
#153887
07/03/13 12:14 AM
07/03/13 12:14 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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This tells us that it is love that saves us, and it implies that we are saved from hatred to love. I would say we are saved from selfishness to love. But the problem in these discussions lies, perhaps, in the concept of love. And to our concept of what is sin.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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