We are all damaged!! That is what sin has done to ALL of us. I hear what you are saying, and what I am saying is that we can trust God to do the right thing. The point is if we judge people, particularly after an event such as a stroke, or say another genetic disease such as Tourette's where a person may use foul language, our judgment of that person will probably be wrong. God knows all of our inter-workings, and He knows who will be saved. I suspect that the IJ takes a lot of this into account. The IJ is about God proving His case for bringing in those who appear to be beyond hope, such as the demoniacs. The story of Job also proves that God can call a character.

If we are all damaged, why won't God save everybody? And why would God preserve a damaged physical structure for the resurrection?

God can save anyone. With what nature did Christ come with? The same as us. God can save everyone. God will not force anyone into His kingdom.

Well, we seem to be talking past each other, since you are answering questions instead of arguments. Anyway, it's clear we won't reach any kind of agreement.

This is an interesting question, what does it even mean? Where did you get such an idea?

I noticed these.



It seems that APL only counts physical, material things as real. Anything outside the physical realm would be discounted as imaginary.

I believe that spiritual, immaterial things are actually more "real" than what can be seen. Therefore, agreement on any spiritual matter would be almost impossible. More importantly, since my primary focus is on the spiritual realm, it would seem that there would be little overlap in our topics of discussion.

The difference is that I see spiritual things as real things. What is your definition of spiritual?

There are many things we do not understand. Was Christ a real human being after his resurrection? Yes! Did Christ appear inside of rooms the doors being closed? Yes! John 20:26. Was this a real physical event? Yes. Did Christ walk on water? Yes! Are there things in the physical world we do not understand? Yes.

asygo - your focus on the "spiritual", do you neglect the physical? Romans 1:20 Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all!" Does what we perceive in the physical have an effect on the spiritual? Is so, you best not ignore it.

Your problem is that you assume that if it is not physical, it is not real; if it is not material, it is not real. You say that you "see spiritual things as real things" but you seem to believe they are founded on physical constructs and cannot exist without them.

I do not neglect the physical realm, but I understand that it is actually not the most important thing.

2 Corinthians 4:18 - while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Do you believe that only physical things are real things?


Now that we all agree on that point, can you stop asking for a mechanism for everything as if knowledge of a mechanism is required for validity? As you said so eloquently, there are many things we do not understand.

There are many things we do not understand. That does not mean we can not seek to understand. After His resurrection, Jesus could enter rooms which were closed. He was unseen entering. Does that make Him non-physical? NO. I will continue to seek out why things are the way they are. Yes, I will continue to ask, "what is sin". Yes, I will continue to ask, "what is salvation". Yes, I will continue to ask, what is God really like. I don't know what that bugs you so much. Perhaps, it is because you don't have an answer?

I have no problem with not having an answer. I have gotten accustomed to that long ago. I keep searching for answers, but I no longer need to have them all right now.

The problem is that while you allow yourself to have unanswered questions, to continue to seek for truth in spite of ignorance, you do not extend the same grace to others. When someone proposes a theory, you expect a mechanism or else face your ire. And should anyone question the validity of one of your cherished beliefs (genetic sin, epigenetics, ...), you manifest a spirit diametrically opposed to your current humble claim that "there are many things we do not understand."

And I ask again: Do you believe that only physical things are real things?

I persist because I believe that once you answer that candidly, we can avoid wasting a lot of time.