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Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #154393
07/23/13 03:24 PM
07/23/13 03:24 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: green
I notice you refrained from answering regarding the truth being "a destroyer." Why do you think Mrs. White called it that? Do you believe she was telling the truth?
Did you read the WHOLE article, or did you just do a word search and quote a single line? Reading the whole article is very enlightening. Who is doing the destruction in that article?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #154394
07/23/13 03:40 PM
07/23/13 03:40 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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APL,

Am I a destroyer because I have destroyed something? Can Satan be THE destroyer if I am also a destroyer?

What sayest thou?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #154401
07/23/13 05:07 PM
07/23/13 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
When God destroys, it is His "strange act." He is not THE destroyer, Satan is. The difference between "the" and "a" is tremendous.

For some reason you greatly emphasized the difference between "the" and "a". Later, you seemed to have backpedaled. Maybe your comment here is outdated now?
Quote:
Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. {Apollyon: that is to say, A destroyer }
(KJV)
So what do we do with the places where Ellen White says, "Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer."

Satan is A destroyer. Satan is THE destroyer. If satan is THE destroyer, does he use God to be A destroyer along with him? Or is this a case where God isn't THE destroyer nor A destroyer, but He just plain destroys?

Quote:
But there was something more for me. He spoke and said: "Satan is the destroyer, I am your Restorer. I will restore you." Then I was so happy, and so full of joy that He would restore me. I cannot remember the words that were spoken, but this is the import: Your trial is not yet ended. You will be tempted; you will have affliction; you will have suffering; but you are not to judge by this suffering that God is not your Helper. I am your Restorer. You are to look to Jesus. I did not know what the words meant. {2SAT 85.4}

Quote:
I'll throw out a challenge: If you can find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God is not A destroyer," I will seriously reconsider my view.
But I doubt you can you find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God destroys"? Whether with A or THE in it?

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #154402
07/23/13 06:01 PM
07/23/13 06:01 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
But I doubt you can you find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God destroys"? Whether with A or THE in it?

There are no statements saying that God is a destroyer - the word, of course, has a pejorative meaning. But there are many passages which say that God destroys. Bible examples would be Eze. 28:16, 1 Cor. 3:17. Some EGW exemples would be:

The world had become so corrupt through indulgence of appetite and debased passion in the days of Noah that God destroyed its inhabitants by the waters of the Flood. {Con 24.2}

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. {DA 107.4}

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Rosangela] #154403
07/23/13 07:28 PM
07/23/13 07:28 PM
APL  Offline OP
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God punishes, destroys, and liquidates. (Excerps from Straub, "As He Is")

So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them (Gen_6:7).

And, behold, I Myself am bringing a floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die (Gen_6:17).

Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground (Gen_19:24-25).

And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt (Exo_7:3)

And He hardened Pharaoh’s heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said (Exo_7:13).

And he said to them, “Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor’” (Exo_32:27).

It was to be impressed upon Israel that in the conquest of Canaan they were not to fight for themselves, but simply as instruments to execute the will of God; not to seek for riches or self-exaltation, but the glory of Jehovah their King {PP 491}.

Like the men before the Flood, the Canaanites lived only to blaspheme Heaven and defile the earth. And both love and justice demanded the prompt execution of these rebels against God and foes to man {PP 492}.

But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city (Mat_22:7).

A careful reading of the whole parable of which this last verse is a part, and the commentary on it in Christ’s Object Lessons, pages 307-309, will show that the king is God, the armies were those of the Romans, the murderers were the Jews, and the city was Jerusalem. The text was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Therefore, the text is really saying, “And when God heard thereof, He was wroth: and God sent forth His armies, the Romans, and God destroyed the Jews, and God burned up Jerusalem.”

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them (Rev_20:9).

These statements are more than sufficient to provide the examples needed to show that there are many such Scriptures that, when interpreted according to the way our minds have been accustomed to interpret them, leave one with no option but to believe that God does use force to liquidate those who have rebelled against Him.

There are many people today (I won't mention any names) who read these texts, interpret them according to long-accustomed methods, and are quite satisfied to believe that God behaves as an executioner to those who refuse to obey His laws. But in doing so they are ignoring several things. First, there are quite a number of statements that say the opposite from what these statements are interpreted to mean. Second, there are the great principles that are embodied in the constitution of God’s government. Third, there are the terrible implications of holding such beliefs about God.

Some counter examples:

The LORD is righteous in all His ways, Gracious in all His works (Psa_145:17).

Your testimonies [commandments or laws], which You have commanded, are righteous and very faithful (Psa_119:138).

The Lord is righteous and the law is righteous. Therefore, God is what the law is. It is the “transcript of His own character” {COL 315}, and that law declares that “thou shalt not kill” (Exo_20:13, KJV). Therefore, if it is not in the law to kill, it is not in the character of God to kill. Let’s examine a number of other quotations.

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself {COL 84}.

God destroys no one {5T 120}.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan {GC 36}.

Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree coming upon the earth, and why? The Lord’s restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest {6T 388, 389}.

This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it {7T 141}.

In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God … will say to the angels, “No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work {RH, September 17, 1901}.

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village” (Luk_9:55-56). Consider these thoughts:

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas {DA 487}.

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God’s government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power {DA 759}.

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority {DA 22}.

We know that God does nothing that is contrary to the principles of His government. Therefore, He does not use force. This principle is stated with certainty in The Ministry of Healing: “Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer” {DA 113}.

This second list we have an emphatic and clear assertion that God is not an executioner, punisher, or destroyer. When these and the first set are viewed side by side, there does not appear to be any way of reconciling the two.

Some take these statements and loose their faith in the Bible. Others simply ignore the words and are unable to unwilling to accept.

Quoting Straub:

True students of God’s Word will not make these mistakes. They will ignore no statements, no matter how they may seem to contradict others. They will candidly acknowledge that so far as their understanding has developed, these statements remain for them a flat contradiction of each other, though by faith, they know that in God’s Word there is no real contradiction.

Undisturbed by the clamor of voices around, they will move forward in quiet faith, patiently studying God’s Word, knowing that, under God’s tutelage, such revelations of the mysteries will come to them and will remove all contradictions, providing a perfect harmony where previously only confusion existed.

There will be those who will charge these careful students with twisting the Scriptures. They will accuse them of making the Word of God say what it does not. They will argue emphatically that the Bible says, “God destroyed them.” Then they will ask, “What could be written more plainly than that?”

One might counter by saying, “It also says, ‘God destroys no man.’” This will have no effect. Their minds have been programmed to accept only that which they have chosen to believe. No impression can be made by quoting contrary statements. They merely entrench themselves more firmly behind their list while, in growing indignation, they level the charge that the plainly written words of God are being rejected.

Two things must be established at this point. One is that this problem cannot be solved by simply countering statements with other statements. Second, it cannot be resolved by twisting or changing the statements to conform to our preferred ideas. In this study great care has been taken not to do this. Even so, we still expect that the opponents of the position taken in this book will level this accusation against us. We believe it will be found that the only interpretations given to the Scriptures will be those found in the Scriptures themselves, with no private interpretation being offered.

There has been the careful and frank quoting of the two different and seemingly contradictory compilations in order to demonstrate that there is a problem which needs solving. How can this problem be solved so as to bring the thoughtful, responsible student to an accurate knowledge of what the Word of God is teaching? That is the important question which we must now study.

Faith is a steadying factor in the problem. Faith says that there are no contradictions in God’s Word. Faith says that we must take both of these statements as they read. Faith says that in due time the God of heaven Himself will provide the answers if we trust Him and continue our careful, objective study.

Then we come to the flood. The implications of the standard view of what God did in the obliteration of the human race in Noah’s day are very serious indeed. The commonly accepted view of what God did suggests that He was forced to admit that righteousness was not able to withstand the crushing tide of evil, so God and Christ were obliged to step in, exercising Their own superior physical power to reverse the tide, erase the entire company of Satan’s followers, and preserve alive only Their own.

It would be as if there was a conversation between the Father and the Son along these lines: “In the beginning We determined to fight this great controversy on the basis that righteousness could stand on its own merits. But now it is clear that sin has reached such proportions that it is on the verge of a world takeover. At the moment We only have eight subjects remaining, and in a short time, these, too, will die or join Satan’s camp, thus making him the total victor in this struggle. So we must act now by coming to the rescue of righteousness. Let us step in with our limitless, infinite power and obliterate the entire side standing for Satan. We will preserve only our own people and thus make a complete, fresh start. Thereafter, We will maintain the use of force in appropriate places to ensure that Satan never again brings the world to this same crisis point.”

This implies that God had to revise His method of dealing with the sin problem. It reveals Him as beginning in one way, but finding Himself later obliged to introduce measures not contemplated in the beginning. This makes God less than infinite, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. It means that He is not really God because God has perfect foreknowledge, needing no revisions, compromises, or changes as time goes by.

In this way we find a serious problem on our hands. Nothing can deny the clarity of the principles underlining God’s government or of His way of dealing with the sin problem. Yet, at the same time, the story of the flood seems to show a God who was later forced to introduce an element of compulsion and destruction.

Our attitude must be one of faith. We must believe implicitly that in the Word of God there are no contradictions. Those contradictions that appear as such are there only because of an inadequate understanding on our part. God will give light and understanding to those who humbly and sincerely seek it. There is a perfect reconciliation between God’s stated attitude to the sin problem and the story of the flood, as well as many other accounts of what God appears to have done in history.

Still quoting Straub:

This chapter has been devoted to the recognition that there is a very real problem to be solved because of the existence of apparent contradictions in the Word of God. At the same time, we encourage each believer to realize that there are no real contradictions in God’s Word, that the Bible is written for man’s understanding, that these problems are therefore solvable, and that simple trusting faith in God will bring clear understandings in this connection. If we are prepared to adopt this attitude, then we are ready to proceed on to the study of the way in which the problem may be solved.

One should read the rest of what Straub has to say in his book, "As He Is". It is currently a featured book here: http://www.teachservices.com/


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Rosangela] #154407
07/23/13 08:41 PM
07/23/13 08:41 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
But I doubt you can you find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God destroys"? Whether with A or THE in it?

There are no statements saying that God is a destroyer - the word, of course, has a pejorative meaning. But there are many passages which say that God destroys. Bible examples would be Eze. 28:16, 1 Cor. 3:17. Some EGW exemples would be:

The world had become so corrupt through indulgence of appetite and debased passion in the days of Noah that God destroyed its inhabitants by the waters of the Flood. {Con 24.2}

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. {DA 107.4}

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}
Actually, I was asking Green. He was using a specific word phrase so he could say: How many? 0, none, no such occurrences.
So I put it right back at him.

But, if you are wanting occurrences of God is not a destroyer, the quote I listed tells that: "Satan is the destroyer, I am your Restorer. I will restore you." And what do you do with those statements?

As far as the Bible using the word, "destroy", it also says God slew Saul. But who slew Saul?

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #154439
07/25/13 12:37 AM
07/25/13 12:37 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. {DA 107.4}

God has declared that sin must be destroyed as an evil ruinous to the universe. Those who cling to sin will perish in its destruction. {COL 123.3}

These two passages are clear. Who will destroy sin? Will sin destroy itself? Will Satan destroy sin? God will destroy sin. But those who cling to sin will perish in its destruction. The death of the sinner is a result of the destruction of sin.

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Rosangela] #154441
07/25/13 12:47 AM
07/25/13 12:47 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Is sin real and material, or is sin immaterial? If immaterial, how does it destroy real things?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Rosangela] #154454
07/25/13 12:55 PM
07/25/13 12:55 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
These two passages are clear. Who will destroy sin? Will sin destroy itself? Will Satan destroy sin? God will destroy sin. But those who cling to sin will perish in its destruction. The death of the sinner is a result of the destruction of sin.
Wow, deep! You are separating the destruction of sin from sinners. And I'm not disagreeing. But, can you really detail the destruction of "sin"?

Anyway, is it possible God destroys in a fashion to how he slays?

And if God destroys, what do you do with the statement, "Satan is the destroyer, I am your Restorer. I will restore you"?

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #154462
07/25/13 09:20 PM
07/25/13 09:20 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
I'll throw out a challenge: If you can find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God is not A destroyer," I will seriously reconsider my view.
But I doubt you can you find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God destroys"? Whether with A or THE in it?

Maybe the destructions spoken of are in past or future tense. For example:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I was pointed back to the children of Israel anciently and saw how pure and holy the ministers of the sanctuary had to be, because they were brought by their work into a close connection with God. They that minister must be holy, pure, and without blemish, or God will destroy them. God has not changed. He is just as holy and pure, just as particular, as He ever was. Those who profess to be the ministers of Jesus should be men of experience and deep piety, and then at all times and in all places they can shed a holy influence. {EW 102.2}

Thus God will destroy the wicked from off the earth. But the righteous will be preserved in the midst of these commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark. God will be their refuge, and under His wings shall they trust. Says the psalmist: "Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation; there shall no evil befall thee." Psalm 91:9, 10. "In the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion: in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me." Psalm 27:5. God's promise is, "Because he hath set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known My name." Psalm 91:14. {PP 110.3}


God will destroy. It is interesting that the focus of inspiration is not whether God will destroy, but how and with what attitude.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The rabbis had a saying that there is rejoicing in heaven when one who has sinned against God is destroyed; but Jesus taught that to God the work of destruction is a strange work. That in which all heaven delights is the restoration of God's own image in the souls whom He has made. {COL 190.1}

God loves to restore people. He hates to destroy them. He does the former willingly and happily. The latter, He must do, but takes no delight in it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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