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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15457
09/18/05 02:52 AM
09/18/05 02:52 AM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Mark, you wrote:By placing a one-sided construction on the passages you quote, you have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God. It should give you pause. To which I asked:Doesn't this pronoucement seem a bit popish? "You have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God." Do you disagree? Or do you see nothing wrong in statements such as this? I don't perceive you have answered this question. It doesn't appear that you first comment is addressing this, but that might have been your intent, I don't know. I would like an answer to my question, which is if you think the type of pronoucements you have been making are proper. I don't think they are. For example, you wrote: quote:
You claim to be rehabilitating the character of God, undoing the misguided work of many Christians and Adventists
I never made any such claim! You should either retract your statement, or produce some quote. If you think accusations like this are "restating my position" you are taking gross liberties here. Once again, if you're going to make accuasations like this, then you should adduce some evidence. "Extraordinary accusations require extraordinary proof." as Lance Armstrong says.
As far as I'm aware, I haven't spoken ill of any of you. I get frustrated when nobody considers the arguments I'm making (except Rosangela) and proceed in what I perceive to be a non-logical fashion. However, I haven't made any pronouncements against any of you. I have no reason to believe any of you aren't right with the Lord, searching for truth, as much as I am.
None of us have the whole picture. The point of these disucssions, in my mind, is to search together, presenting evidence for the positions we hold, and asking questions regarding the positions we disagree with. Accusing the positions of another without presenting any evidence has, throghout history, not been the position of the side of truth, as has been shown over and over again.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15458
09/18/05 03:28 AM
09/18/05 03:28 AM
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Mark:Tom, by my re-stating what you seem to be saying, I am asking you to look at the implications of your position. You’ll have to trust me on that. Tom:I think restating another's position is a good thing to do, but for a different reason than you have given. It's a good technique to use to verify that you've correctly understood what the other person is saying. In my case, you haven't. There's no reason for me to look at the implications of your restatements of my position if they do not reflect my actual positon, is there? Mark:In the investigative judgment, God decides who will be written in the book of life and who will not. Tom: Sure God does this, but not in an arbitrary fashion. In other words, the books of heaven reflect the reality of the situation. His judgments are descriptive; they agree exactly with the facts of the case. Mike:This tells us that sin is not merely taking its course. God is in control of who is pardoned and who is not. Tom:Not really. Those who choose their course are in charge of who is pardoned and who is not. Unless we're Calvinists. God has given us freedom of choice, and WE choose whether we will be pardoned or not. This is the Arminian tradition. Mike:Those who are pardoned by God (and the Jews were right; only God can pardon sin) escape the inevitable results of sin – suffering and death. Tom:God pardons all who choose to be pardoned. Only those who refuse the wooing of His Spirit will not be pardoned: quote:
The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. (DA 176)
Mark:In the millennial judgment, the saints and Christ decide whether the initial decisions of the investigative judgment were correct.
Tom:This makes sense to me.
Mark:They also decide what the punishment will be for the wicked. In both the case of the investigative judgment and in the case of the millennial judgment, the sentence is pronounced against the wicked, not by sin itself, but by God and those who reign with him.
Tom:Are these judgements prescriptive or descriptive? The same question applies in general to the pronoucements of the law. Are they arbitrary?
For example, consider the law "Thou shalt not touch the stove" given to a young child. This law is given as a law to protect the child from the effects if breaking it. This child will be burnt if the child touches a stove which is on. To avoid this, the law is given. Whether or not the law is given, the effects of breaking it would exist. Giving the law does not add the penalty of not observing it; that penalty was always there.
Similary, the effects of lying, stealing, or any of the other commandments have always been ruin, destruction and death. God did not do something to make this things bad, but gave the law to protect us from the effects of breaking it.
Ty Gibson remarks:
quote:
God's law in not a list of arbitary rules concocted by a picky control freak who wants everything to go His way. It is simply the only way to live in harmony with love, and to live in love is the only way to perpetutate life into eternity. Sin is not merely an alternative way of doing things which happens to be contrary to God's opinion. Sin is violation of the life-sustaining principle of love spelled out in God's law. All sin, therefore, is selfishness at root level...
The right way is right because it is sustains life. The wrong way is wrong because it destroys life. There is absolutely no arbitrary element in God's character. Things are the way they are because they are, by very nature, that way, and must by that way in order for life to flourish. Do not hear God saying, "If you sin, I'll kill you; but if you do things My way, I'll let you live." Rather, hear Him speak the true reality of the matter: "If you pursue sin, it will destroy you; but if you turn to Me and embrace My lofe, that love will restore and sustain you for all eternity.
God's law=love=life.
Sin=selfishness=death.
(See With New Eyes pp. 89-90; emphasis mine)
I'm quoting Ty Gibson because you have spoken favorably of him in the past. As far as I am aware, I agree with all the principles he sets forth in his books.
Mark: That is why I asked you those earlier questions:
Old Mark:What do you make of the text Tom, that we will judge angels? If sin does all the punishing on its own and God has nothing to do with punishment, how can God along with those who sit with Him on His throne ‘bring every work into judgment’? How can God and the saints claim be the judge of anything in the universe if sin is the exclusive agent of punishment?
Mark:My point is that God will be and is actively involved in the punishment of the wicked, just as He is in the deliverance of the saints.
Tom:I agree God is involved. I believe DA 764 sets forth how quite clearly. I agree with what Ty Gibson has written about the destruction of the wicked. If you agree with him, then we are in agreement. If you disagree, then we're not.
Mark:I agree with you that our present pain and suffering are the result of sin in general. And as I’ve said before, I think you are bringing some points forward that need greater attention. For example that God is not vindictive, that the consuming fire of God is love, that sin brings death, that God does not take pleasure in destroying His enemies, etc. But you go too far and your position implies that there is no real meaning to texts that tell us that vengeance belongs to God.
Tom:The thoughts are not original to me. Romans 12 explains that God's vengeance is overcoming evil with good. This Paul got from the Sermon on the Mount. I agree with what Paul wrote. I agree with Ty Gibson's thoughts on this.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15459
09/18/05 03:42 AM
09/18/05 03:42 AM
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Daniel:EGW quotes on both sides of the equation have been interesting, however, no matter how one states it, or even how it happens, whether or not God does it this way or that way, it is still God who does it, or causes it to happen, particularly in the case of The Flood. Tom:The Scriptures present God as doing that which He permits. There are many, many examples of this. To merely state that "God did it" is not helpful; it provides no useful information in and of itself. For example, God destroyed Jerusalem. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that holy angels of God took apart the stones of the temple one by one. Yet if we read the first chapter of The Great Controversy we see that God did not actively do anything to destroy Jerusalem. All He did was to permit that those who had chosen to be under the control of Satan should have their way. To say "God did it" is as helpful as asserting hell is eternal because Rev. 20:10 says "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." We must take in mind the various principles of inspiration, and bear in mind that God does not contradict Himself. For example, consider these principles: quote:
"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.
quote:
"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.
quote:
"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (DA 79)
quote:
The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36.
quote:
"In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. (5ABC 1137)
quote:
"All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.
How does your statement "God did it" tie in with these principles?
Daniel:Why not also think about this in the reverse.
Who created this world? How did He do it?
Who made the dry land appear? How did He do it?
Who divided the waters from the waters? How did He do it?
Now to the questions pertaining this Who or What caused the Flood? topic.
Who caused The Flood? How did He do it?
Tom:The flood was different in principle than all the other events because the act of creation was not destructive. As an act of creation, there was not contradiction either apparent or actual to the following principle, for example:
quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.
So to discuss God's creation in no way deals with the discussion of the flood. At least, I see no connection. If you see one, please explain it.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15460
09/18/05 04:32 AM
09/18/05 04:32 AM
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Mike:Under great pressure? Ready to burst forth? Super naturally held back by God? Where are such ideas indicated in the Bible or the SOP? Quotes, please. Let's turn to the facts, okay. Tom: Ok. Here's a quote: quote:
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. (Gen. 7:11, 12)
This is from www.creationism.org
quote:
Actually, in Genesis, chapter 7 it states that the waters rose higher in respect to the land for 150 days, and went down for the subsequent 150 days. The total time of the Great Flood was about 1 year in length from when Noah's family entered till they left the Ark. That's what it has always clearly stated. Period. But it also appears to have rained pretty darned hard for the first 40 days and nights of this pivotal time (and there were strong winds, Gen. 8:1). There is clearly no evidence that rain caused the Flood and modern creationists have never contended this.Forgive me here, but only evolutionists keep this false notion propped up in order to openly distain creation theory including the Flood.(emphasis mine)
The Scriptures say that waters broke forth from the great deep. It seems logical to me that these waters were under great pressure. If they were under great pressure, then it stands to follow that God was holding back that pressure, until the waters broke forth.
This is just an idea. Inspiration doesn't tell us exactly how the flood occured. What we do know is that the principles of God are eternal; He doesn't change. Inspiration doesn't contradict itself.
Here are some more quotes:
quote:
There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.
quote:
"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.
quote:
"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (DA 79)
quote:
The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36.
quote:
In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. (5ABC 1137)
quote:
"All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.
You seem to think that these quotes are "unrelated," but this idea is very much in error. It should be evident that a statement like
quote:
In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement.
cannot be dismissed as "unrelated."
I've asked you repeatedly to explain how your theory of things agrees with the above quotes, but you have heretofore refused to even make an attempt to do so.
We don't know the specifics of how the flood took place. I don't claim to know any more than anybody else about this. However, I believe inspiration does not contradict itself, and whatever happened will be in harmony with what I've quoted above.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15461
09/19/05 02:11 AM
09/19/05 02:11 AM
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Tom, in your post to Mark you used the name Mike. And, who is Daniel? Do you mean Daryl? By the way, it would appear that Ty Gibson subscribes to the idea that God does not, has not, and will not destroy. In a conversation, about 20 years ago, Ty commented on the Flood, “Satan was like a mad scientist whose experiment had gone wrong, and he feared for his own life.” quote:
This is just an idea. Inspiration doesn't tell us exactly how the flood occured. What we do know is that the principles of God are eternal; He doesn't change. Inspiration doesn't contradict itself.
Tom! Tom! Tom! Listen to yourself, please. You are building an entire theory based on “just an idea”. What does the Bible say about it?
2 Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Just because you say the Bible or the SOP do not clearly explain how God caused the Flood doesn’t make it so. Again, she says, “Then ‘the fountains of the great deep’ were ‘broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.’ Water appeared to come from the clouds in mighty cataracts. Rivers broke away from their boundaries, and overflowed the valleys. Jets of water burst from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and these, in falling, buried themselves deep in the ground.”
Do you suspect that these “mighty cataracts” were being unnaturally held back by God, too? You seem to discount the rain in your attempt to explain the Flood story in the Bible and the SOP.
PP 101
Love, no less than justice, demanded that God's judgments should put a check on sin. The avenging waters swept over the last retreat, and the despisers of God perished in the black depths. {PP 100.3}
"By the word of God . . . the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:5-7. Another storm is coming. The earth will again be swept by the desolating wrath of God, and sin and sinners will be destroyed. {PP 101.1}
Inspiration plainly tells us that the Flood was caused by the “word of God.” And yet you seem to believe it was caused by God merely withdrawing His hand and allowing nature to run its natural course, which, you admit, is just an idea.
Inspiration also says “by the same word” the world is kept in store until God destroys it with fire. Do you also suspect that this fire, which comes “down from God out of heaven” (Rev 20:9), is bursting at the seams somewhere in the heavens, ready and eager to destroy the world?
PP 103, 104
In Noah's day philosophers declared that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water; so now there are men of science who endeavor to show that the world cannot be destroyed by fire--that this would be inconsistent with the laws of nature. But the God of nature, the Maker and Controller of her laws, can use the works of His hands to serve His own purpose. {PP 103.2}
When great and wise men had proved to their satisfaction that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water, when the fears of the people were quieted, when all regarded Noah's prophecy as a delusion, and looked upon him as a fanatic--then it was that God's time had come. "The fountains of the great deep" were "broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened," and the scoffers were overwhelmed in the waters of the Flood. With all their boasted philosophy, men found too late that their wisdom was foolishness, that the Lawgiver is greater than the laws of nature, and that Omnipotence is at no loss for means to accomplish His purposes. {PP 103.3}
Here she plainly says God, contrary to the laws of nature, used the forces of nature to serve His own purpose. There is absolutely nothing about this insight to suggest that nature would have destroyed mankind if God hadn’t mercifully held her in check.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15462
09/19/05 02:15 AM
09/19/05 02:15 AM
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quote:
I've asked you repeatedly to explain how your theory of things agrees with the above quotes, but you have heretofore refused to even make an attempt to do so.
Here’s why, Tom. What you claim we cannot know is described in amazing detail.
PP 109, 110
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}
Said the prophets of old, referring to scenes like these: "Oh that Thou wouldest rend the heavens, that Thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at Thy presence, as when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make Thy name known to Thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at Thy presence! When Thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, Thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at Thy presence." Isaiah 64:1-3. "The Lord hath His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers." Nahum 1:3, 4. {PP 109.2}
More terrible manifestations than the world has ever yet beheld, will be witnessed at the second advent of Christ. "The mountains quake at Him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at His presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger?" Nahum 1:5, 6. "Bow Thy heavens, O Lord, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out Thine arrows, and destroy them." Psalm 144:5, 6. {PP 109.3}
"I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke." Acts 2:19. "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent." Revelation 16:18, 20, 21. {PP 110.1}
As lightnings from heaven unite with the fire in the earth, the mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrific streams of lava, overwhelming gardens and fields, villages and cities. Seething molten masses thrown into the rivers will cause the waters to boil, sending forth massive rocks with indescribable violence and scattering their broken fragments upon the land. Rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed; everywhere there will be dreadful earthquakes and eruptions. {PP 110.2}
Thus God will destroy the wicked from off the earth. But the righteous will be preserved in the midst of these commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark. God will be their refuge, and under His wings shall they trust. Says the psalmist: "Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation; there shall no evil befall thee." Psalm 91:9, 10. "In the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion: in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me." Psalm 27:5. God's promise is, "Because he hath set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known My name." Psalm 91:14. {PP 110.3}
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15463
09/18/05 03:00 PM
09/18/05 03:00 PM
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GC 337, 338
From age to age the warnings which God has sent to the world by His servants have been received with like incredulity and unbelief. When the iniquity of the antediluvians moved Him to bring a flood of waters upon the earth, He first made known to them His purpose, that they might have opportunity to turn from their evil ways. {GC 337.3}
Here it says God, not nature, caused the Flood that killed the antediluvians.
1BC 1088
God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. (Ibid., Sept. 19, 1907). {1BC 1088.6}
She says it was God, not nature, who was determined to destroy the world by a flood.
SR 55
He [Adam] witnessed the general corruption which afterward finally provoked God to destroy the inhabitants of the earth by a flood. {SR 55.1}
God, not nature, destroyed the inhabitants of the earth by a flood.
SR 58
He made known to him that He would not always bear with man in his rebellion--that His purpose was to destroy the sinful race by bringing a flood of waters upon the earth. The pure and lovely Garden of Eden, from which our first parents were driven, remained until God purposed to destroy the earth by a flood. {SR 57.2, 58.1}
God, not nature, caused the flood. It was His purpose, not nature’s.
SR 70, 71
This rainbow was to evidence the fact to all generations that God destroyed the inhabitants of the earth by a flood, because of their great wickedness…. the hands of the Most High had bent the bow and placed it in the clouds as a token that He would never again bring a flood of waters on the earth. {SR 70.2}
Again, it was God, not nature, that destroyed the world by a flood.
SR 72, 73
Some of the descendants of Noah soon began to apostatize. A portion followed the example of Noah and obeyed God's commandments; others were unbelieving and rebellious, and even these did not believe alike in regard to the Flood. Some disbelieved in the existence of God, and in their own minds accounted for the Flood from natural causes. Others believed that God existed and that He destroyed the antediluvian race by a flood; and their feelings, like Cain's, rose in rebellion against God because He destroyed the people from the earth and cursed the earth the third time by a flood…. Those who did not believe in God imagined if their tower could reach unto the clouds, they would be able to discover reasons for the Flood. {SR 72.1, 3}
Tom, it is unbelievers who blame the Flood on natural causes, rather than attributing it to vengeance of God.
3SG 87
As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}
Again, it was God who called forth the water, not nature. Nowhere, not once, does she ever say God allowed nature to run it's inevitable, impending course of destruction.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15464
09/18/05 06:01 PM
09/18/05 06:01 PM
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Tom:You didn't answer this simple question: Were the waters under the earth which broke forth under pressure? You sort of answered it by writing: quote:
Under great pressure? Ready to burst forth? Super naturally held back by God? Where are such ideas indicated in the Bible or the SOP?
The answer to your question to me is that the waters of the great deep broke forth. That in and under itself indicates the waters were under great pressure. Anyone with any understanding whatsoever of physics should be able to see this. What do you think caused the waters to go up, contrary to the force of gravity, if not pressure?
I'm going to treat your last two posts first.
I only saw you make one point in your last two points, which is that it is God, not nature, who caused the flood. But you point out that God used nature to accomplish this task, which I've been in agreement all along.
How did God use nature? I propose that God did so by removing His protecting/sustaining hand, which would be in harmony with the principles I outlined. What I have proposed is feasible scientifically, agrees with inspiration (even Rosangela, who agrees with you, agrees my proposal is possible, even though she thinks it's improbable), and agrees with the principles I set out.
You STILL have made no attempt to harmonize your statements with the principles I quoted. According to the Spirit of Prophesy, EVERY truth of Scripture, to be properly understood, MUST be understood in relation to the light streaming from Calvary. You seem to have no idea how to relate your ideas to Calvary, which, according to her statements, would imply you have not properly understood it.
I should add that God's using His word doesn't change anything. God accomplishes everything by His word. The question is if He is using His word in harmony with the principles of His government (which I believe He is) or contrary to them.
The following is from http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/14flod07.htm
quote:
Massive amounts of water burst out of the ground.
When the Flood began, something was "broken up."
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep [tehom] broken up [baqa] and the windows of heaven were opened."
What had happened?
Inside the earth were multiplied thousands of interconnected channels and springs of waters. These provided a vast watering system for the entire earth. As the first rains of the Flood began falling,—this vast system was "broken up," or baqa. These channels and underground pools were torn open and ripped apart violently! Baqa means a "violent cleavage." We have not here a gurgling forth of an artesian spring, but rather the most violent bursting forth of hundreds of thousands of subterranean water sources! One example of this would be Eccl 10:9, in which a man cleaves a block of wood with an axe: a powerful, quick thrust followed by a bursting apart. The presence of baqa also helps to graphically explain two other historical events: As the Israelites approached the Red Sea, the waters burst aside to make room for their passage ("divides" Ex 14:16). As Korah and his associates stood defiantly, the ground beneath their feet exploded sideways, and they and their possessions fell into the chasm which had opened.
Proverbs 3:19 speaks of Creation; Proverbs 3:20 of the Flood, "when the depths are broken up."
Isaiah 35:6 and Psalm 78:15 mention the mighty miracle which occurred when Moses hit the face of a rock monolith with a stick—and a powerful cleavage ripped apart, out of which pure water poured.
The Hebrew word, baqa, is used to describe the breaking up of the immense fountains of the great deep (tehom). Pictured here is a gigantic cleavage of the crust of the earth, with oceans of water exploding outward from those fissures in continual commotion.
3 - FOUNTAINS OF THE GREAT DEEP
Water in violent commotion.
Psalm 78:15, mentioned above, includes both the words, baqa and tehom,—just as we find in Genesis: "In the sixth hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep [tehom] broken up [baqa] and the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen 7:11). One would expect to find, in Hebrew, "fountains of waters" (mayim), but instead we are presented with "fountains of the great deep" (tehom). "Tehom" specifically means "water in violent commotion, making a great noise."
An understanding of these Hebrew words is enabling us to obtain a better understanding of what the Flood was like!
In Psalm 23:2, we are told about the "still waters," the mayim. But in Genesis 7:11, we are told about the tehom, not the mayim. Those of you who have lived near the ocean, as the present writer has, can understand something of the violence of large, rapidly moving waters. An entire earlier section of this chapter describes the destruction that storm waves can produce. Psalm 42:7 uses tehom to describe the turbid violence of those waves. Exodus 15 speaks of the intense destructive capacity of turbulent waters restrained by the hand of God (15:8), and afterward when they covered the enemies of God's people (15:5).
So, in tehom, we have a description of massive quantities of water in violent, turbid commotion!
This description appears to me to be in harmony with the quotes you gave from the Spirit of Prophesy, as well as Scripture, and science. What caused the fountains of the great deep to break forth? Certainly it was the word of God, but in what capacity? Given the waters which burst forth from the great deep were under great pressure, which they must have been, the word of God commanded the waters be released. This harmonizes with everything.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15465
09/18/05 06:11 PM
09/18/05 06:11 PM
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You've asked me four times now Tom about whether your position should give you pause regarding the sorrow you suggested one should feel at the death of those who align themselves with Babylon. Mike has pointed out just above that attributing the flood to natural causes is what unbelievers are guilty of. That should also give you pause. I could list other things but you're not at a point yet apparently where you are prepared to consider some of these things. I can only hope you'll store them away in your memory for future reference.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15466
09/18/05 06:29 PM
09/18/05 06:29 PM
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One final note: You are right to observe that some of my comments show a 'Calvanist' perspective. Our 'Calvanist' friends are at the opposite extreme of Adventist theology regarding the role of the will. However, scripture is in the middle and it rejects the idea that anyone can be saved who chooses to be. The saved will be in heaven because God has chosen them. They have said 'yes' to God and to Christ, but it was Christ who chose us, not vice versa. This is an important area that merits another thread.
Part of the fall out of Adventism's (not Ellen White's) unscriptural view of the role of the will is the inroads that the 'moral influence' proponants are making in the church. Those who place undue emphasis on the will are vulnerable to the ideas that God does not punish, that forgiveness can issue from God without the need for a sacrifice, etc. To be clear, I am not saying Tom you hold all of these ideas.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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