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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15447
09/16/05 10:59 AM
09/16/05 10:59 AM
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Tom, you asked whether any of the saints or God himself will rejoice at the death of the wicked. God and the saints take ‘no pleasure’ in their death, even in the death of Satan. But are they glad that Satan and those who have conformed their character to his are no longer present to harass, annoy, temp, deceive and destroy? We will all breathe a great sigh of relief will we not?
And we will be glad for the sake of the wicked that they are no longer a burden to themselves. They will see their destiny is fixed by their own conscious choices. They will be suffering the most acute mental anguish, blaming themselves as they see the treasure they have thrown away in exchange for the fleeting pleasures of sin and lust. The saints will love God all the more for not allowing the mental agony of the wicked to be prolonged. Their sigh of relief will not just be because they are not longer subjected to the persecution and suffering inflicted by Satan and his followers on them. They will praise God that the wicked only suffer for the time meted out to them in measure by heaven.
What do you make of the text Tom, that we will judge angels? If sin does all the punishing on its own and God has nothing to do with punishment, how can God along with those who sit with Him on His throne ‘bring every work into judgment’? How can God and the saints claim be the judge of anything in the universe if sin is the exclusive agent of punishment? Isn’t this your postion? If sin does everything how can the Apostle say that God is a consuming fire? Shouldn’t the Apostle say ‘sin is a consuming fire’ instead? Why would it be fearful thing to fall into His hands? If sin does all of the punishing, how can anyone fall into His hands?
Is you logic as sound as you claim? In my view, Mike and others have been providing you with many soundly Biblical arguments.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15448
09/17/05 03:34 AM
09/17/05 03:34 AM
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Mark:Tom, you asked whether any of the saints or God himself will rejoice at the death of the wicked. God and the saints take ‘no pleasure’ in their death, even in the death of Satan. But are they glad that Satan and those who have conformed their character to his are no longer present to harass, annoy, temp, deceive and destroy? We will all breathe a great sigh of relief will we not? Tom:Of course I agree with this. Why would you think I wouldn't? I'm not aware of anything I've written that would give the impression that I think anything different than what you've written above here. Mark:And we will be glad for the sake of the wicked that they are no longer a burden to themselves. They will see their destiny is fixed by their own conscious choices. They will be suffering the most acute mental anguish, blaming themselves as they see the treasure they have thrown away in exchange for the fleeting pleasures of sin and lust. The saints will love God all the more for not allowing the mental agony of the wicked to be prolonged. Their sigh of relief will not just be because they are not longer subjected to the persecution and suffering inflicted by Satan and his followers on them. They will praise God that the wicked only suffer for the time meted out to them in measure by heaven. Tom:I agree with this completely. I would only add that it is God's presence, His character of love, which causes them the most pain. I agree with the principles you are expressing here completely. Mark:What do you make of the text Tom, that we will judge angels? If sin does all the punishing on its own and God has nothing to do with punishment, how can God along with those who sit with Him on His throne ‘bring every work into judgment’? Tom:Sin has everything to do with punishment. Sin is transgression of the law. Transgressing of the law brings about its penalty. For example, say you have a young child, and you give the law "Thou shalt not touch the stove." You establish this out of love, because you don't want your child to be burnt. If the child touched a burning stove, the child would be burnt regardless of whether no not the law existed. The law was given to protect the child from the penalty for breaking it would occur. The penalty would exist whether or not the law existed. Similarly God has given His law to us as a hedge, a protection against the pain, suffering and death which disobedience to its principles would bring. Mark:How can God and the saints claim be the judge of anything in the universe if sin is the exclusive agent of punishment? Isn’t this your postion? Tom:I wouldn't say that sin is the exclusive agent of punishment, but rather that the inevitable result of sin is death. Mark:If sin does everything how can the Apostle say that God is a consuming fire? Shouldn’t the Apostle say ‘sin is a consuming fire’ instead? Why would it be fearful thing to fall into His hands? If sin does all of the punishing, how can anyone fall into His hands? Tom:What I think is exactly what is written here: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
I've quoted this many, many times and explained the principles here. I'm not aware of having written anything which is in any way contrary to anything here. If I have, please point out some quote, and I'll either explain how I see what I wrote to be in harmony or take it back.
Mark:Is you logic as sound as you claim? In my view, Mike and others have been providing you with many soundly Biblical arguments.
Tom:The logic I was referring to was regarding the waters bursting from the great deep. Yes, I think what I said is logical. Those waters obviously must have been under great pressure to have burst forth the way they did. It makes sense that God was keeping the pressure in check for the time previous to when the waters burst forth, don't you think? It sure sounds logical to me.
I haven't seen Mike present any sound arguments at all, whether Biblical or not. A sound argument should be based on some sort of of reasoning. He just lists texts.
Rosangela, OTOH, does generally present sound arguments. The difficulties I have with her positions are generally speaking not with the soundness of the arguments but with the presuppositions taken.
She is the only one I can think of (who has been opposing the positions I've been presenting) who has presented any sound arguments.
If you have some specific argument in mind, I would be happy to comment.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15449
09/16/05 04:38 PM
09/16/05 04:38 PM
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quote:
As I pointed out, you will find not one example of your methodology in inspiration (i.e. the proof text method; a listing of texts devoid of reasoning or logical development).
Tom, again, the Flood account is not a proof text method. It’s an entire account, a huge portion of the Bible and the SOP.
quote:
The method seen in inspiration is exactly the one I quoted to you from the Spirit of Prophesy. A well reasoned argument based on principles which are revealed in Scripture.
You have yet to quote from the Flood passages.
quote:
I have come up with a theory based on what I have read in creation science literature and what has been revealed in inspiration, keeping in mind that Scripture does not contradict itself.
Now all you have to do is support your theory from the Bible or the SOP. Where does it say God caused the Flood by stopping holding back the inevitable and impending forces of nature? You haven’t quoted anything yet that supports your theory.
quote:
If you wish to assert that God caused the flood in some means which is contrary to what I have suggested (His removing His protective and sustaining hand, which allowed the waters of the earth to burst forth) then you should adduce some evidence to support you view.
Okay, let’s read through the chapter on the Flood in Patriarchs and Prophets.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15450
09/16/05 04:46 PM
09/16/05 04:46 PM
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PP 92
The world was in its infancy; yet iniquity had become so deep and widespread that God could no longer bear with it; and He said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth." He declared that His Spirit should not always strive with the guilty race. If they did not cease to pollute with their sins the world and its rich treasures, He would blot them from His creation, and would destroy the things with which He had delighted to bless them; He would sweep away the beasts of the field, and the vegetation which furnished such an abundant supply of food, and would transform the fair earth into one vast scene of desolation and ruin. {PP 92.1}
Okay, here's where she begins talking about God destroying the world with a flood of waters. So far, there is nothing to indicate that earth was a ticking time bomb eagerly striving against the hand of God to wreak havoc everywhere. It simply says, "I will destroy ..." and "He would blot ..."
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15451
09/16/05 05:13 PM
09/16/05 05:13 PM
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Mike is giving you direct quotes that you interpret to fit your views. But you claim he says nothing logical?
I’m glad to see you’re starting to make some allowance for the role of God and the saints in dealing with sin.
Your past posts gave the impression that you give sin a God-like role; this characterization not only attributes the wrong character traits to God, it also alters the scriptural traits of character ascribed to Satan. For example, how can Satan be called the ‘destroyer’ in scripture if sin is actually the destroyer? Another example: You claim to be rehabilitating the character of God, undoing the misguided work of many Christians and Adventists, but are you not effectively placing God in a less favourable light by claiming that He really does not deliver the saints, He simply allows sin to take it’s course. And are you not making Satan out to be really not so bad as he might seem by saying he really is not the destroyer portrayed in Scripture? You say sin is the destroyer and that Satan is merely the temper don’t you? And you say God does not directly deliver His people. He only removes his protection to allow sin to destroy His enemies.
But Christ is a saviour, not only from sin, He saves us from our enemies. This is throughout scripture. We are the special objects of God’s active care and He has given nations and tribes in exchange for the life of His people. He will do the same at the end in the case of Babylon.
I’ll give more thought to the role of Christ in the investigative judgment and the role of the saints in the millennial judgment. I will plan to comment later on how these fit in with how God deals with sin (as opposed to sin dealing with sin on its own) but I am out of time.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15452
09/16/05 06:21 PM
09/16/05 06:21 PM
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Mark:Mike is giving you direct quotes that you interpret to fit your views. But you claim he says nothing logical? Tom:I stated I didn't see any sound arguments from anyone except Rosangeala. In order to have a logical argument, you have to an argument to start with. An argument should start with a premise, and then have conclusions which are arrived at through some process of reasoning. Only Rosangela has been doing this on this thread, that I can perceive. I think Mike has presented sound arguments on the other thread (the temptation one). Even though I don't completely agree with what he's been saying, he has been presenting evidence and reasoning from cause to effect. Again, I haven't see anyone do this on this thread, excepting Rosangela (i.e. anyone opposing the view I've been presenting). Mark:I’m glad to see you’re starting to make some allowance for the role of God and the saints in dealing with sin. Tom:I'm glad to see you're starting to read what I'm actually writing! Thank you! I haven't changed my view, or "allowances". Mark:Your past posts gave the impression that you give sin a God-like role; this characterization not only attributes the wrong character traits to God, it also alters the scriptural traits of character ascribed to Satan. For example, how can Satan be called the ‘destroyer’ in scripture if sin is actually the destroyer? Tom:Satan and sin are united in inspiration. Here's an example of the concept: quote:
The time of trouble is the crucible that is to bring out Christ-like characters. It is designed to lead the people of God to renounce Satan and his temptations. The last conflict will reveal Satan to them in his true character, that of a cruel tyrant, and it will do for them what nothing else could do, uproot him entirely from their affections. For to love and cherish sin, is to love and cherish its author, that deadly foe of Christ. When they excuse sin and cling to perversity of character, they give Satan a place in their affections, and pay him homage. The Review and Herald, August 12, 1884.
Regarding the role of sin in the destruction of the wicked, it's spelled out in detail in DA 764.
Mark:Another example: You claim to be rehabilitating the character of God, undoing the misguided work of many Christians and Adventists, but are you not effectively placing God in a less favourable light by claiming that He really does not deliver the saints, He simply allows sin to take it’s course.
Tom:I do wish you would stop making false statements regarding me. Really! I've made no such claim as you are attributing to me. I haven't called anyone misguided, or called anyone names of any sort. You've been the one doing this. I've asked you repeatedly to comment on the following:
quote:
By placing a one-sided construction on the passages you quote, you have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God. It should give you pause.
To which I asked:Doesn't this pronoucement seem a bit popish? "You have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God." Do you disagree? Or do you see nothing wrong in statements such as this?
I am very interested in knowing your response to these questions.
This is at least the third time I've asked you this.
You have misrepresented my positions and then made very strong pronouncements against your own mispresentations! I ask you if you think this is OK, but you don't answer. I ask you for quotes for you to establish your misrepresentations of my positions, but you don't produce any, don't make any retractions, and come up with new pronouncements and new misrepresentations!
Instead of doing this, why not deal with the substantive issues? I presented a list of principles which I stated must be in harmony with any view of the destruction of the wicked. Do you disagree with this? If not, why do the principles not apply? If so, then please demonstrate how your idea of things fits in with these principles.
In particular, consider the following:
quote:
"In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. Those who study the Redeemer's wonderful sacrifice grow in grace and knowledge." The SDA Bible Commentary, 5:1137
How do your ideas fit in with this? Or this one:
quote:
"All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.
How do your ideas fit in with Christ's revelation of God's character? You suggested the fig tree incident, but I explained that was in harmony with the principles I have stated; that God withdraws His grace (as stated in the Desire of Ages). You made no comment, and have adduced nothing in Christ's life or character to support your views. I'd like to see an attempt to do this. Especially tied into the cross would be nice, since according to the above quote there is NO truth we can understand apart from the light streaming from the cross.
Mark:And are you not making Satan out to be really not so bad as he might seem by saying he really is not the destroyer portrayed in Scripture? You say sin is the destroyer and that Satan is merely the temper don’t you?
Tom:No, I don't say this. Produce some quote, please.
Mark:And you say God does not directly deliver His people.
Tom:No, I've never said this. Please provide some quote.
Mark:He only removes his protection to allow sin to destroy His enemies.
Tom:Where have I said this? Please provide some quote.
Mark:But Christ is a saviour, not only from sin, He saves us from our enemies. This is throughout scripture.
Tom:Of course. I can only conclude you have not read what I've written, or paid attention to what was written, to have the idea I've said anything that in any way controverts this. Please produce some quote to explain what misled you. If I through some poor choice of words have badly stated something, I'll correct it, but I feel very confident I've never written anything which should have led you to such an erroneous conclusion as to what I intended, and would ask for some quote to show otherwise, if I'm at fault and have badly stated something. I can assure you I have never believed what you are attributing to me.
Mark: We are the special objects of God’s active care and He has given nations and tribes in exchange for the life of His people. He will do the same at the end in the case of Babylon.
Tom:We are certainly the special objects of God's active care, which is a point I've made many times. I don't know what you meant by the part that followed.
Mark:I’ll give more thought to the role of Christ in the investigative judgment and the role of the saints in the millennial judgment. I will plan to comment later on how these fit in with how God deals with sin (as opposed to sin dealing with sin on its own) but I am out of time.
Tom:Ok. I'll look forward to that. It's a subject well worth study, and I'll be glad to read what you have to say.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15453
09/16/05 06:28 PM
09/16/05 06:28 PM
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Mike, you would agree that the waters which burst forth from the great depth were under great pressure, wouldn't you? Well, let me stop there. Just one question. Then we'll go from there.
Also I'd be interested to see you develop your ideas in a way which take into account the principles I laid out a couple of posts above.
Thank you.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15454
09/17/05 02:34 PM
09/17/05 02:34 PM
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Under great pressure? Ready to burst forth? Super naturally held back by God? Where are such ideas indicated in the Bible or the SOP? Quotes, please. Let's turn to the facts, okay.
We can theorize all day long, but nothing beats the truth. Here's more of what it says in the SOP about the Flood. Again, there's nothing about God stopping holding back the inevitable forces of nature, forces chomping at the bit and eager to kill and destroy.
PP 99
But upon the eighth day dark clouds overspread the heavens. There followed the muttering of thunder and the flash of lightning. Soon large drops of rain began to fall. The world had never witnessed anything like this, and the hearts of men were struck with fear. All were secretly inquiring, "Can it be that Noah was in the right, and that the world is doomed to destruction?" Darker and darker grew the heavens, and faster came the falling rain. The beasts were roaming about in the wildest terror, and their discordant cries seemed to moan out their own destiny and the fate of man. Then "the fountains of the great deep" were "broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." Water appeared to come from the clouds in mighty cataracts. Rivers broke away from their boundaries, and overflowed the valleys. Jets of water burst from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and these, in falling, buried themselves deep in the ground. {PP 99.1}
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15455
09/17/05 11:43 PM
09/17/05 11:43 PM
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Tom, by my re-stating what you seem to be saying, I am asking you to look at the implications of your position. You’ll have to trust me on that. In the investigative judgment, God decides who will be written in the book of life and who will not. This tells us that sin is not merely taking its course. God is in control of who is pardoned and who is not. Those who are pardoned by God (and the Jews were right; only God can pardon sin) escape the inevitable results of sin – suffering and death. In the millennial judgment, the saints and Christ decide whether the initial decisions of the investigative judgment were correct. They also decide what the punishment will be for the wicked. In both the case of the investigative judgment and in the case of the millennial judgment, the sentence is pronounced against the wicked, not by sin itself, but by God and those who reign with him. That is why I asked you those earlier questions: quote:
What do you make of the text Tom, that we will judge angels? If sin does all the punishing on its own and God has nothing to do with punishment, how can God along with those who sit with Him on His throne ‘bring every work into judgment’? How can God and the saints claim be the judge of anything in the universe if sin is the exclusive agent of punishment?
My point is that God will be and is actively involved in the punishment of the wicked, just as He is in the deliverance of the saints.
I agree with you that our present pain and suffering are the result of sin in general. And as I’ve said before, I think you are bringing some points forward that need greater attention. For example that God is not vindictive, that the consuming fire of God is love, that sin brings death, that God does not take pleasure in destroying His enemies, etc. But you go too far and your position implies that there is no real meaning to texts that tell us that vengeance belongs to God.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15456
09/18/05 12:10 AM
09/18/05 12:10 AM
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EGW quotes on both sides of the equation have been interesting, however, no matter how one states it, or even how it happens, whether or not God does it this way or that way, it is still God who does it, or causes it to happen, particularly in the case of The Flood.
Why not also think about this in the reverse.
Who created this world? How did He do it?
Who made the dry land appear? How did He do it?
Who divided the waters from the waters? How did He do it?
Now to the questions pertaining this Who or What caused the Flood? topic.
Who caused The Flood? How did He do it?
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