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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15467
09/18/05 06:36 PM
09/18/05 06:36 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike:Tom, in your post to Mark you used the name Mike. Tom:Not always, just sometimes. I've had a lot more practice typing "Mike" than "Mark," so it just kind of falls of the fingers. Mike:And, who is Daniel? Do you mean Daryl? Tom:All this time, Daryl has been with you, and you don't know? When you've seen Daryl, you've seen Daniel. Mike: By the way, it would appear that Ty Gibson subscribes to the idea that God does not, has not, and will not destroy. In a conversation, about 20 years ago, Ty commented on the Flood, “Satan was like a mad scientist whose experiment had gone wrong, and he feared for his own life.” Tom:What conversation? A private converstation? What? Old Tom: This is just an idea. Inspiration doesn't tell us exactly how the flood occured. What we do know is that the principles of God are eternal; He doesn't change. Inspiration doesn't contradict itself. Mike:Tom! Tom! Tom! Listen to yourself, please. Tom:Ok. Let's see, "Inspiration doesn't contradict itself." Ok. I respond "Amen!" to what I'm saying. Mike:You are building an entire theory based on “just an idea”. Tom:No, I'm building an entire theory based on the premise that inspiration does not contradict itself. In particular, the following inspirational quotes must be harmonized: quote:
There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.
quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.
quote:
Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (DA 79)
quote:
The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36.
quote:
In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. (5ABC 1137)
quote:
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.
How does your idea of what happened harmonize with these principles?
Mike:What does the Bible say about it?
2 Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Just because you say the Bible or the SOP do not clearly explain how God caused the Flood doesn’t make it so.
Tom:Just because you ignore the quotes I present does not make them not exist. These principles do exist, and must be accounted for.
Mike:Again, she says, “Then ‘the fountains of the great deep’ were ‘broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.’ Water appeared to come from the clouds in mighty cataracts. Rivers broke away from their boundaries, and overflowed the valleys. Jets of water burst from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and these, in falling, buried themselves deep in the ground.”
Do you suspect that these “mighty cataracts” were being unnaturally held back by God, too?
Tom:No, I suspect they came from the waters which broke forth from the depths.
Mike:You seem to discount the rain in your attempt to explain the Flood story in the Bible and the SOP.
Tom:Where do you think the rain came from?
Mike:
PP 101
Love, no less than justice, demanded that God's judgments should put a check on sin. The avenging waters swept over the last retreat, and the despisers of God perished in the black depths. {PP 100.3}
"By the word of God . . . the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:5-7. Another storm is coming. The earth will again be swept by the desolating wrath of God, and sin and sinners will be destroyed. {PP 101.1}
Inspiration plainly tells us that the Flood was caused by the “word of God.” And yet you seem to believe it was caused by God merely withdrawing His hand and allowing nature to run its natural course, which, you admit, is just an idea.
Tom:You've missed understood the "just an idea" phrase. That God caused the flood to occur by withdrawing His protective and sustaining hand is in harmony with the quotes I presented above. That God did this according to His word also harmonizes with everything. As to how specifically scientifically the flood occured, we are not told. I posted in the other post, just before this one, some points made by a creationist site.
Mike:Inspiration also says “by the same word” the world is kept in store until God destroys it with fire. Do you also suspect that this fire, which comes “down from God out of heaven” (Rev 20:9), is bursting at the seams somewhere in the heavens, ready and eager to destroy the world?
Tom:No, I suspect the fire is in the same place the water was. It's called magma.
Mike:PP 103, 104
In Noah's day philosophers declared that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water; so now there are men of science who endeavor to show that the world cannot be destroyed by fire--that this would be inconsistent with the laws of nature. But the God of nature, the Maker and Controller of her laws, can use the works of His hands to serve His own purpose. {PP 103.2}
When great and wise men had proved to their satisfaction that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water, when the fears of the people were quieted, when all regarded Noah's prophecy as a delusion, and looked upon him as a fanatic--then it was that God's time had come. "The fountains of the great deep" were "broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened," and the scoffers were overwhelmed in the waters of the Flood. With all their boasted philosophy, men found too late that their wisdom was foolishness, that the Lawgiver is greater than the laws of nature, and that Omnipotence is at no loss for means to accomplish His purposes. {PP 103.3}
Here she plainly says God, contrary to the laws of nature, used the forces of nature to serve His own purpose.
Tom:She didn't say God worked contrary to the laws of nature. Elsewhere she states God doesn't work contrary to the laws of nature. She said God used the laws of nature, and that God is great than the laws of nature (which of course, He must be, being their Creator).
Mike:There is absolutely nothing about this insight to suggest that nature would have destroyed mankind if God hadn’t mercifully held her in check.
Tom:Read MH 416. We owe our existence to God's loving protective and sustaining care. This applies to both the natural and moral/spiritual realm.
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15468
09/19/05 01:59 PM
09/19/05 01:59 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Okay, Tom, I'm done. You are obviously unwilling to admit that God has, and will, destroy unsaved sinners without violating His law or character. I leave you with this quote to ponder: quote:
[1] Some disbelieved in the existence of God, and in their own minds accounted for the Flood from natural causes. [2] Others believed that God existed and that He destroyed the antediluvian race by a flood; and their feelings, like Cain's, rose in rebellion against God because He destroyed the people from the earth and cursed the earth the third time by a flood…. Those who did not believe in God imagined if their tower could reach unto the clouds, they would be able to discover reasons for the Flood. {SR 72.1, 3}
Which category do you fall into, Tom?
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15469
09/20/05 02:17 AM
09/20/05 02:17 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I have never said the flood occured by natural causes.
There are two groups of people, Mike. Those who believe that all that can be known of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity, and those who don't. Which group are you in?
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Re: Who or What caused the Flood?
#15470
09/23/05 03:18 AM
09/23/05 03:18 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
You've asked me four times now Tom about whether your position should give you pause regarding the sorrow you suggested one should feel at the death of those who align themselves with Babylon.
Somehow I missed this. Thank you for answering my question.
Mark, I apologize if my question was not clear. Here's your statement and my question:
quote:
Mark, you wrote:By placing a one-sided construction on the passages you quote, you have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God. It should give you pause.
To which I asked:Doesn't this pronoucement seem a bit popish? "You have arrived at a position where you will not be in harmony with God." Do you disagree? Or do you see nothing wrong in statements such as this?
My question was regarding *your* statement, whether or not it (your statement) seems popish to you. You state that I have arrived at a position where I will not be in harmony with God. *This* is what I think is popish. Do you disagree? Do you think what you wrote is acceptable?
Above you referenced my saying something about feeling sorrow for the death of those who align themselves for Bablyon. What statement of mine did you have in mind? I'm not aware of making any statement about those who align themselves with Babylon.
Please produce direct quotes regarding what I've written (or be very careful). That's what Rosangela does. Even though she disagrees with me, she doesn't misrepresent what I write. That way there can be no doubt about what the person actually said. There may still be misunderstanding involved, but at least one layer of confusion is eliminated.
Thank you.
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