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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#154588
08/02/13 04:48 AM
08/02/13 04:48 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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So say you. Have you done a double-blind experiment to prove your theory? That's the gold standard in the scientific world. Your kidding, right? There are more types of studies than double blind. IN fact, some systems are so complex, that random, double-blind studies are impossible! Or how about epidemiological studies? Shall we do a double-blind experiment the next time an ebola outbreak happens to find the cause? Would that be even ethical? There are many different study types besides double-blind. Treatment studies can be blind or not blind. They can be double-blind or single blind. Then there are observational studies. They can be cohort prospective or retrospective. They can be case controlled, or cross-sectional. Gold standard? There are certain observations which when made over and over, "hints" to the underlying problem. Is all disease caused by sin or not? If all disease is found the have the same underlying problem over and over, is that evidence or not? So which of these studies have you performed? In all cases ever witnessed, a human father always resulted in a sinful child. And none of these sinful children ever became inherently perfect. There have inly been 3 known cases of sinless humanity, and none of them had a human father. Can we conclude that human fathers cause sin? Correlation <> Causality
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#154589
08/02/13 04:51 AM
08/02/13 04:51 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
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I understood double blind studies are only used in cases where the subjects and the researchers could be influenced. One would not need to use a double blind study to determine if an herbicide is effective. I would therefore not call a double blind study a "gold standard". So how would you test the theory of genetic sin? Can you find a statistically significant control sample? Using scientific standards in matters faith is misguided.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: asygo]
#154595
08/02/13 09:59 PM
08/02/13 09:59 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,494
Midland
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I thought you were suggesting a double blind study? Maybe you were just saying it couldn't be done. But I was addressing whether it was a "gold standard".
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#154597
08/03/13 01:09 AM
08/03/13 01:09 AM
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NON-SDA
Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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As this question was not answered, I'm reposting it here: Was Satan referring to the "law of life" when he said that it needed to be changed? Was this the law that he said was "arbitrary"? The Bible gives the reason for the fall of Satan. It had nothing to do with an argument over the Law. This is what God said, "Because you have done this (i.e. DECEIVED THE WOMAN, the serpent should have known better!), you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life." (Gen. 3:14) The serpent had cultivated a cult of self-worship by deceiving Adam and Eve that they were somehow GODS unto themselves, an idea for which they owed him. You can see it reflected in the judgement of God, in sentence: 1. The serpent was placed under the woman (Gen. 3:15b), 2. The woman was placed under the man (Gen 3:16b), and 3. The man was placed under the earth, in the dust (Gen. 3:19b) Their sin was self-exaltation without merit, an empty claim that resulted in rotten and violent characters. Of the innocent animals they were killing in the Garden of Eden, "the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them." (Gen. 3:21) Theirs was the lot of death thereafter, outside of Paradise.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#154600
08/03/13 03:13 AM
08/03/13 03:13 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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I thought you were suggesting a double blind study? Maybe you were just saying it couldn't be done. Since APL was using the filter of science to understand the spiritual matters, I was just exploring exactly how scientific his methods are. He hasn't yet said what kinds of standard scientific tests and trials he has done. I wasn't suggesting he do it; I was asking if he had. I await his response. And surely it can be done, theoretically. I just can't imagine where we would find a statistically significant sample for the "genetically undamaged humans" group. But I was addressing whether it was a "gold standard". Don't get hung up on that. Gold, silver, platinum, mud - it doesn't matter. Any scientific standard would do. Publish it in a peer-reviewed journal and that would do the trick. The crucial issue is the scientific method: observe, hypothesize, test. I'm looking for the test. If it can't be done, then let's not pretend that we are on accepted scientific footing.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: James Peterson]
#154603
08/03/13 03:35 AM
08/03/13 03:35 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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As this question was not answered, I'm reposting it here: Was Satan referring to the "law of life" when he said that it needed to be changed? Was this the law that he said was "arbitrary"? The Bible gives the reason for the fall of Satan. It had nothing to do with an argument over the Law. This is what God said, "Because you have done this (i.e. DECEIVED THE WOMAN, the serpent should have known better!), you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life." (Gen. 3:14) The serpent had cultivated a cult of self-worship by deceiving Adam and Eve that they were somehow GODS unto themselves, an idea for which they owed him. You can see it reflected in the judgement of God, in sentence: 1. The serpent was placed under the woman (Gen. 3:15b), 2. The woman was placed under the man (Gen 3:16b), and 3. The man was placed under the earth, in the dust (Gen. 3:19b) Their sin was self-exaltation without merit, an empty claim that resulted in rotten and violent characters. Of the innocent animals they were killing in the Garden of Eden, "the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them." (Gen. 3:21) Theirs was the lot of death thereafter, outside of Paradise. What was the roll of the fruit?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#154604
08/03/13 03:35 AM
08/03/13 03:35 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Since APL was using the filter of science to understand the spiritual matters.. You have it backwards.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#154606
08/03/13 09:01 AM
08/03/13 09:01 AM
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NON-SDA
Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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As this question was not answered, I'm reposting it here: Was Satan referring to the "law of life" when he said that it needed to be changed? Was this the law that he said was "arbitrary"? The Bible gives the reason for the fall of Satan. It had nothing to do with an argument over the Law. This is what God said, "Because you have done this (i.e. DECEIVED THE WOMAN, the serpent should have known better!), you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life." (Gen. 3:14) The serpent had cultivated a cult of self-worship by deceiving Adam and Eve that they were somehow GODS unto themselves, an idea for which they owed him. You can see it reflected in the judgement of God, in sentence: 1. The serpent was placed under the woman (Gen. 3:15b), 2. The woman was placed under the man (Gen 3:16b), and 3. The man was placed under the earth, in the dust (Gen. 3:19b) Their sin was self-exaltation without merit, an empty claim that resulted in rotten and violent characters. Of the innocent animals they were killing in the Garden of Eden, "the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them." (Gen. 3:21) Theirs was the lot of death thereafter, outside of Paradise. What was the roll of the fruit? The role of the fruit? I'm not sure that there was any role-playing involved. What God was warning Adam against was imitating Satan. In saying, "do not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," God was speaking metaphorically. It is evident from the question he asked of Adam afterwards: "WHO TOLD YOU that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?" (Gen. 3:11) Adam and Eve were not even to listen to Satan, but to constantly keep their guard against his deceptive words enticing them in the way of self-exaltation. ...
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: James Peterson]
#154611
08/03/13 01:58 PM
08/03/13 01:58 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Interesting. The Bible says, in the day you eat, not the day you listen. What part of Genesis is not metaphor? Any part?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#154612
08/03/13 04:01 PM
08/03/13 04:01 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Since APL was using the filter of science to understand the spiritual matters.. You have it backwards. I'm only reading the Bible with the science I know. I read science with the Bible I know. Perhaps I am backwards compared to you, but I'll stick to this methodology.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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