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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: James Peterson] #154659
08/05/13 12:36 PM
08/05/13 12:36 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Arnold speaks truth. Notice something else about that quote from Ellen White:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. – {16MR 247.2}

Where does it say that Satan created the seeds? I don't believe he has that power. He can only "sow" them. And, the statement doesn't say he is the only one who has sown them. It just says that he sows all of the tares.

For example, a painter might paint all colors. Does that mean he is the only one who has ever painted those colors? or does that mean that he is quite willing to paint any of them?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Originally Posted By: The Pslamist
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,
that bringeth forth his fruit in his season;
his leaf also shall not wither;
and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. (1:3)


The tree was metaphorical.

...
...


James,

I'm not sure what you are applying the metaphor to, but you are certainly right in that trees can be metaphorical. I prefer to use the term "symbolic." They symbolize leaders. Daniel 4 is a prime example. In Psalm 1, the tree represents a spiritual leader, as do also the "cedars of Lebanon" and other similar symbols. Obviously, when the trees of the field "clap their hands," they are representing more than mere trees.

Grass, herbs and trees--all created the same day--represent classes of people. Perhaps what you are saying in response to my post is that the "tares" are representative, or "metaphors," for the wicked. If so, I would agree with you.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #154664
08/05/13 03:50 PM
08/05/13 03:50 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Psalms 90:4 AKJV For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 AKJV But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Six literal days of creation, or six metaphorical days. If the trees are just symbolic/metaphoric, then the rest of the chapter can be considered the same. Do you really want to go there?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #154667
08/05/13 07:14 PM
08/05/13 07:14 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Psalms 90:4 AKJV For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 AKJV But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Six literal days of creation, or six metaphorical days. If the trees are just symbolic/metaphoric, then the rest of the chapter can be considered the same. Do you really want to go there?


Note that Peter was quoting the Psalmist, and that the original thought was about the fleeting passage of time. To God, who is from everlasting to everlasting, a thousand years is nothing at all. They are all together "as yesterday when it is past, AND as a watch in the night."

Note the conjunction "AND". They are not only as yesterday, but like one-eighth of a day that passes quickly like when a man sleeps.

This passage IN NO WAY says that "one thousand years = one day".

...
...

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #154672
08/05/13 07:54 PM
08/05/13 07:54 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Originally Posted By: asygo

Adam will eat herbs
Slight correction there. Adam will eat herbs of the field. In other words, he'll have to work up a sweat to get the ground to give him food.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: James Peterson] #154673
08/05/13 08:41 PM
08/05/13 08:41 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: APL
Psalms 90:4 AKJV For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 AKJV But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Six literal days of creation, or six metaphorical days. If the trees are just symbolic/metaphoric, then the rest of the chapter can be considered the same. Do you really want to go there?


Note that Peter was quoting the Psalmist, and that the original thought was about the fleeting passage of time. To God, who is from everlasting to everlasting, a thousand years is nothing at all. They are all together "as yesterday when it is past, AND as a watch in the night."

Note the conjunction "AND". They are not only as yesterday, but like one-eighth of a day that passes quickly like when a man sleeps.

This passage IN NO WAY says that "one thousand years = one day".

...
...
And the trees in the garden were not metaphors or symbols. They were literal trees. There may be addition meanings, but none the less, they were real, just as the days of creation were real.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #154675
08/05/13 10:00 PM
08/05/13 10:00 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
And the trees in the garden were not metaphors or symbols. They were literal trees. There may be addition meanings, but none the less, they were real, just as the days of creation were real.


You are greatly deceived. Why do you doubt the word of Jesus Christ?

Originally Posted By: Jesus of Nazareth, THE Christ, Son of the Living God
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.(John 6:53-54)


The eating of a fruit does NOT open your eyes and give you the skill to weave fig leaves.

...
...

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: James Peterson] #154676
08/06/13 12:40 AM
08/06/13 12:40 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
James,

Many people do try to attribute that passage in 2 Peter 3:8 to a concept that time is meaningless to God. However, such an interpretation does not follow proper hermeneutics. That verse is singular in being the most definitive time formula in all of scripture. If time was meaningless to God, why so many time prophecies, each of which are exact to the day?

Time is important to God. Many passages in the Bible bear this out. In 2 Peter 3:8, an A=B & B=A (definition statement) is found. None of the other time formulas go both ways in the Bible. William Miller wrote a good essay on the topic. I've posted it on this forum at least once.

The days of Genesis were prophetic. Peter himself speaks of it in that chapter. That is the specific context of the formula which he gives there. Are prophetic days not literal? On the contrary, they are literal first. For example, the spies used 40 literal days to spy out Canaan. Those days came to be representative of a prophetic application of 40 years. So the 40 days were both literal and "metaphorical," if that is the word one prefers.

The days of creation were likewise literal days. Yet each one represented a millennium to come. The symbolic or metaphorical value of each of the things which God created in those days present to us the meaning/fulfillment of the prophecy.

There is another thread on this topic here which explains the prophecy.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #154678
08/06/13 01:15 AM
08/06/13 01:15 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
James,

Many people do try to attribute that passage in 2 Peter 3:8 to a concept that time is meaningless to God. However, such an interpretation does not follow proper hermeneutics. That verse is singular in being the most definitive time formula in all of scripture. If time was meaningless to God, why so many time prophecies, each of which are exact to the day?

Time is important to God. Many passages in the Bible bear this out. In 2 Peter 3:8, an A=B & B=A (definition statement) is found. None of the other time formulas go both ways in the Bible. William Miller wrote a good essay on the topic. I've posted it on this forum at least once.


Note that Peter was quoting the Psalmist, and that the original thought was about the fleeting passage of time. To God, who is from everlasting to everlasting, a thousand years is nothing at all. They are all together "as yesterday when it is past, AND as a watch in the night."

Note the conjunction "AND". They are not only as yesterday, but like one-eighth of a day that passes quickly like when a man sleeps.

This passage IN NO WAY says that "one thousand years = one day". Read Psalm 90. It is the Psalm Peter was quoting.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The days of Genesis were prophetic. Peter himself speaks of it in that chapter. That is the specific context of the formula which he gives there. Are prophetic days not literal? On the contrary, they are literal first. For example, the spies used 40 literal days to spy out Canaan. Those days came to be representative of a prophetic application of 40 years. So the 40 days were both literal and "metaphorical," if that is the word one prefers.

The days of creation were likewise literal days. Yet each one represented a millennium to come. The symbolic or metaphorical value of each of the things which God created in those days present to us the meaning/fulfillment of the prophecy.


The Bible does NOT say the days of creation were prophetic, but that they were literal and established the cycle of time for us: seven days = 1 week.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: James Peterson] #154682
08/06/13 02:56 AM
08/06/13 02:56 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
And the trees were literal...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #154690
08/06/13 04:25 AM
08/06/13 04:25 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
This passage IN NO WAY says that "one thousand years = one day".

You are correct. One thousand years does not "equal" one day. It "represents" one day. Note the use of the word "as" to create a simile.
Originally Posted By: The Bible
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


The first thousand-year "day" that we may notice in scripture is the one spoken of in Genesis 2:17. Obviously, Adam did not die the very day he ate the fruit. Neither did Eve, or she wouldn't have had any children. But Adam "only" lived 930 years--short of a full thousand years. He died that "day." By the end of that "day," his "punishment" (as relates to this topic) came.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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