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Re: God or Satan?
#15481
08/17/05 02:54 AM
08/17/05 02:54 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Seeing that Sister White was inspired by God to write what God had shown her leads me to think that all inspired statements must be read as a whole if I got that right.
I'm still not understanding you, Will. You say on the one hand that you prefer the Bible over the Spirit of Prophesy, but simultaeneously affirm that Sister White was divinely inspired. Would God inspire someone to write something contrary to what He had inspired someone else to write? That doesn't seem right, does it?
Returning to the question of the topic, the Spirit of Prophesy states:
quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. (14MR 3)
So God's wrath in the last plagues, if EGW is to be believed *is* Satan's wrath ("for Satan has come down in great wrath".)
This principle laid out here is that God's wrath is His withdrawing His protection, which allows Satan to do terrible things.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15482
08/17/05 05:13 AM
08/17/05 05:13 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hmm. Sister White also said that if she said something that contradicted with what the Bible said to go with the Bible (obviously), so my standard of faith is in the Bible. Why does the Bible say God's wrath and not satans wrath, why do we see that the wrath of God or of the Lamb is used by those who see Christ coming and cry out for the rocks to fall on them.
In fact it is the angels who pour out God's wrath in vials. This is not satans doing. Judgment has been executed and you are either saved or lost by this point in Revelation.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: God or Satan?
#15483
08/17/05 10:55 AM
08/17/05 10:55 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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The cup of wrath that is poured is not filled by God or his angels, but it is filled by the transgressors.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15484
08/17/05 11:56 AM
08/17/05 11:56 AM
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Brazil
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The seven last plagues will be similar to the plagues of Egypt, produced by God´s power, not by Satan´s power:
"Pharaoh called for the magicians to work with their enchantments. They also showed signs and wonders, for Satan came to their aid to work through them. Yet even here the work of God was shown to be superior to the power of Satan, for the magicians could not perform all those miracles which God wrought through Moses. Only a few of them could they do. The magicians' rods did become serpents, [SEE APPENDIX.] but Aaron's rod swallowed them up. After the magicians sought to produce the lice, and could not, they were compelled by the power of God to acknowledge even to Pharaoh, saying: "This is the finger of God." Satan wrought through the magicians in a manner calculated to harden the heart of the tyrant Pharaoh against the miraculous manifestations of God's power. Satan thought to stagger the faith of Moses and Aaron in the divine origin of their mission, and then his instruments, the magicians, would prevail. Satan was unwilling to have the people of Israel released from Egyptian servitude that they might serve God. The magicians failed to produce the miracle of the lice, and could no more imitate Moses and Aaron. God would not suffer Satan to proceed further, and the magicians could not save themselves from the plagues. 'And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians.' Exodus 9:11. God's controlling power here cut off the channel through which Satan worked, and caused even those through whom Satan had wrought so wonderfully to feel His wrath. Sufficient evidence was given to Pharaoh to believe, if he would. Moses wrought by the power of God. The magicians wrought not by their own science alone, but by the power of their God, the devil, who ingeniously carried out his deceptive work of counterfeiting the work of God. {1T 292}
Satan will be active too, causing war and destruction, but the seven plagues, specifically, will not be caused by him.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15485
08/17/05 03:40 PM
08/17/05 03:40 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Hmm. A third possibility. We have: 1) God permits Satan to maim and destroy. 2) God maims and destroys. 3) God and Satan work together, hand in hand as it were, maiming and destroying. So the seven plagues would be an example of the latter. Say one sees a person suffering in agony, having been struck by some pestilence or other manifestation of one of these terrible plagues. How does one know if it is God or Satan causing it? Does it matter? If we can't tell the difference between what Satan does and what God, does this present any philosophical difficulties? Aside from these questions, my original question, which is the point of the topic, remains, which is what principle do we use to determine whether it is God or Satan who is maiming and destroying? Here's another statement to consider: quote:
Men will continue to erect expensive buildings, costing millions of money; special attention will be called to their architectural beauty, and the firmness and solidity with which they are constructed; but the Lord has instructed me that despite the unusual firmness and expensive display, these buildings will share the fate of the temple in Jerusalem. That magnificent structure fell. Angels of God were sent to do the work of destruction, so that one stone was not left one upon another that was not thrown down (MS 35, 1906).
This makes it sound like it was God who was responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem. In the Bible we read this:
quote:
Mark 12:1-9 "He then began to speak to them in parables: A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed. He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, 'They will respect my son.' But the tenants said to one another, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard. What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.
Also this:
quote:
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. (Matt. 22:1-7)
The Bible makes the destruction of Jerusalem sound like something God was doing to.
So was God responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem? Or Satan? What principle do we use to determine who?
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Re: God or Satan?
#15486
08/18/05 12:40 PM
08/18/05 12:40 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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The work of Satan is described as the winds that the angels will cease to hold after the sealing process has finished:
“Just before we entered it [the time of trouble], we all received the seal of the living God. Then I saw the four angels cease to hold the four winds. And I saw famine, pestilence and sword, nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion.” {Mar 243.4}
“Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.”--GC 614
The plagues, on the other hand, are everywhere described as being the work of God.
Now, about the passage related to the plagues of Egypt quoted above, I would like to ask:
Does it make any sense to say that God was working through the miracles performed by Moses in contrast with the miracles performed by the magicians, if both were performed by Satan?
Does it make any sense to say that Satan through the magicians was conterfeiting his own miracles?
Does it make any sense to say that God didn´t permit Satan to proceed further if the plagues continued to fall and they were the work of Satan?
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Re: God or Satan?
#15487
08/18/05 01:33 PM
08/18/05 01:33 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Rosangela: Does it make any sense to say that God was working through the miracles performed by Moses in contrast with the miracles performed by the magicians, if both were performed by Satan?
Tom: It makes about as much sense as saying that God and Satan work hand in hand in maiming, inflicting disease and destroying those who are impacted.
R: Does it make any sense to say that Satan through the magicians was conterfeiting his own miracles?
Tom: Same answer.
R: Does it make any sense to say that God didn´t permit Satan to proceed further if the plagues continued to fall and they were the work of Satan?
Tom: Yes, it does make sense. If God was wishing to illustrate the principle that rejecting His counsel would lead to ruin, it would be very confusing to those watching if God permitted Satan to conterfeit the plagues through Egypt's magicians.
I'm not really wanting to get into the specifics of given incidents, as that is not the purpose of my original question. I'm willing to do so as far as it addresses the original question, which is what principle do we use to determine whether or not it is God or Satan who is causing destruction, maiming, inflicting disease and so forth. To this point, not a soul (except for me) has suggested a principle. I will suggest several here:
1)a)God has revealed Himself completely in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not use force to get His way. He did not maim, inflict disease, or cause death to any person. From this we may deduce that God acts in a similar fashion to Jesus Christ.
b)God is often presented in inspiration as doing that which He permits. From this we may deduce that when God is presented as doing something "bad", it is the result of His permitting that bad thing to happen.
2)Sometimes God does maim, inflict disease and destroy. When God does this, these things are not bad, because it is God who is doing it. God can do anything without it being evil, because He is God. Therefore, by definition, anything He does is good.
If inspiration presents God as doing something "bad", then we assume that it is He who is doing the thing, unless some other text in inspiration shows it is not really God, but Satan, in which case we understand that it is really Satan.
3)First paragraph the same as 2).
Inspiration never presents both God and Satan as doing something "bad". If inspiration says it was God doing something "bad" then it was God. Period. If it says it was Satan, it was Satan. It inspiration appears to say it was both, then it is talking about different acts, and we can separate the actors into parts; God does was He is portrayed as doing, and Satan does what He is portrayed as doing.
It appears to me, that Rosangela, agree with 3). Also Will. I'm not sure, however, as noone has suggested a principle applying to understanding whether it is God or Satan who is doing something "bad".
The reason I am putting "bad" in quotes was because it's eaiser than writing "maiming, inflicting disease" etc. By "bad" I mean things which we would in the normal course of things perceive as bad. I assume we all agree with the principle that God does not do bad things (hence the quotes around "bad").
So what I'm really interested in is understanding what the general principles involved are in approaching these issues. I don't expect anyone to change their mind, so there's probably not much fruit in trying to accomplish this. I'm not trying to do this. However, I think we can all benefit by trying to understand what the general principles are of those who hold to the different positions.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15488
08/18/05 03:13 PM
08/18/05 03:13 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Sometimes God does maim, inflict disease and destroy. When God does this, these things are not bad, because it is God who is doing it. God can do anything without it being evil, because He is God. Therefore, by definition, anything He does is good.
As I said before, in a world of sin, God sometimes has to choose a lesser evil in order to avoid a greater evil; God sometimes has to act contrarily to His will and nature. As I said before, God's very act of permitting Satan to continue living after His fall was in itself an evil; but God did it, because destroying Him would have caused a greater evil.
quote:
It makes about as much sense as saying that God and Satan work hand in hand in maiming, inflicting disease and destroying those who are impacted.
It's the view which proposes that God uses Satan to do the dirty work that holds the view that God and Satan work hand in hand. What I believe is that if there is some inevitable dirty work to be done, God does it Himself. He doesn´t need to hide behind anyone.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15489
08/18/05 05:46 PM
08/18/05 05:46 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Rosangela, I wrote this: quote:
So what I'm really interested in is understanding what the general principles involved are in approaching these issues. I don't expect anyone to change their mind, so there's probably not much fruit in trying to accomplish this. I'm not trying to do this. However, I think we can all benefit by trying to understand what the general principles are of those who hold to the different positions.
I don't expect you to change your mind on anything. I'm not interested in debtating specific incidents, unless it ties into a general principle in some way. I suggested the three principles I could think of. The third one seemed to me the one you are coming from, but it could be two.
There are incidents where inspiration ascribes a bad thing to both God and Satan (or at least appears to). There are three ways to rectify this that I can think of:
1)God doesn't do "bad" things. There when inspiration says God does "bad" things, this should be interpreted as God permitting a bad thing to happen.
2)We should understand that it is God doing the "bad" thing when inspiration says God is doing it, unless inspiration also says Satan did it, in which case we should understand Satan did it.
3)If it appears that inspiration is saying God does some "bad" thing, and Satan does some "bad" thing, then we should realize that inspiration is talking about two different events. Both God and Satan are doing "bad" things, and if we study the issue, we can sort out which is which.
This third one seems to be the one you are coming from, Rosangela, because when I pointed out that Sister White wrote this:
quote:
"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. (14MR 3)"
You responded that these were not the seven plagues, but some different judgments of God. So this appears to me that you are working from the third principle I laid out.
It is very possible that there is principle to work from that I have not thought of as well. Once again, the reason I have brought up this topic is not to debate the specific incidents, but to consider the underlying principles involved.
Thanks!
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Re: God or Satan?
#15490
08/19/05 10:20 AM
08/19/05 10:20 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
There are incidents where inspiration ascribes a bad thing to both God and Satan (or at least appears to).
Tom,
Before thinking about which view I would adopt, it would help to have a list of, at least, the main incidents and to whom they are ascribed.
It seems some ascribed only to God, some only to Satan and some to both. Is this correct?
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