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Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #154865
08/11/13 08:24 PM
08/11/13 08:24 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
You asked, "WHAT saves us?" And I say to you as it is written that "by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." (Eph. 2[;:8)

Faith in what?


If you read Ephesians 2, you would not ask, "faith in WHAT?" You would ask instead, "faith in WHO?"

Jesus said, "for God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life."

...
..

Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #154866
08/11/13 08:27 PM
08/11/13 08:27 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Jesus died for us, but not instead of us.

What does the word "substitute" mean to you?

It was not enough that Jesus should die in order to meet the demands of the broken law; it was needful for Him to die a shameful death. He says through the prophet, "I hid not My face from shame and spitting." He stood as the substitute for man, who was under sentence as a traitor, a rebel. Hence Christ died as a malefactor, in the place of the traitors, with all their treasured sins upon His divine soul. He was numbered with the transgressors. {17MR 340.1}

Gal_3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone having been hanged on a tree").

Ah - so we will not die? Don't stop there. Does Christ's death save us? No. Rom_5:10 We were God's enemies, but he made us his friends through the death of his Son. Now that we are God's friends, how much more will we be saved by Christ's life! Mar_8:34-35 Then Jesus called the crowd and his disciples to him. "If any of you want to come with me," he told them, "you must forget yourself, carry your cross, and follow me. 35 For if you want to save your own life, you will lose it; but if you lose your life for me and for the gospel, you will save it. Christ died for us, but not instead of us. We are saved by His life. Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life, and His life becomes our life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}

APL,
I'm not asking about Christ's life. I'm asking about His death. The passage says:

He stood as the substitute for man, who was under sentence as a traitor, a rebel. Hence Christ died as a malefactor, in the place of the traitors.{17MR 340.1}

What does EGW mean when she says that Christ died as a substitute for man? She's very clear here - He died in the place of the traitors.
So we do not need to take up our own cross.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: James Peterson] #154870
08/11/13 09:17 PM
08/11/13 09:17 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
If you read Ephesians 2, you would not ask, "faith in WHAT?" You would ask instead, "faith in WHO?"

I knew you would say that. If I have faith in Christ, why does that save me? And in I have faith in Buddha, why doesn't that save me?

Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #154871
08/11/13 09:24 PM
08/11/13 09:24 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
APL,
I'm not asking about Christ's life. I'm asking about His death. The passage says:

He stood as the substitute for man, who was under sentence as a traitor, a rebel. Hence Christ died as a malefactor, in the place of the traitors.{17MR 340.1}

What does EGW mean when she says that Christ died as a substitute for man? She's very clear here - He died in the place of the traitors.
So we do not need to take up our own cross.

APL,
We take our cross in gratitude for what He did for us. But I'm not asking this. I'm asking what the word "substitute" mean in relation to Christ's death. What does EGW mean with this word? She said He died as a substitute for man and died in the place of traitors. What does she mean by that?

Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #154872
08/11/13 09:41 PM
08/11/13 09:41 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Rosangela, Let me ask you a question - if Jesus died in place of traitors, then why do sinners die in the end? Read your quote, "He stood as the substitute for man, who was under sentence as a traitor, a rebel. Hence Christ died as a malefactor, in the place of the traitors." {17MR 340.1} Christ's death does not save us, do you agree?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #154873
08/11/13 09:43 PM
08/11/13 09:43 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Rosangela, Christ was circumcised as man's substitute. Jesus was presented to the Lord in Jerusalem at about the age of 40 days as man's substitute. Do you agree?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #154874
08/11/13 09:45 PM
08/11/13 09:45 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
If you read Ephesians 2, you would not ask, "faith in WHAT?" You would ask instead, "faith in WHO?"

I knew you would say that. If I have faith in Christ, why does that save me? And in I have faith in Buddha, why doesn't that save me?


Are you asking these questions to seek answers, or merely to prove a point. If the latter, then what point? Because the questions you ask have obvious answers.

Nevertheless, I will answer this one by quoting Jesus Christ. He said, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, AND BELIEVETH IN HIM, may have everlasting life:and I will raise him up at the last day."

Can Buddha do that? Can Mohammed raise anyone up? Can the Pope give life to anyone?

....
...

Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #154875
08/11/13 09:47 PM
08/11/13 09:47 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
APL, I'm on my way to church now. I'll answer when I come back.

Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #154882
08/12/13 02:15 AM
08/12/13 02:15 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Rosangela, Let me ask you a question - if Jesus died in place of traitors, then why do sinners die in the end? Read your quote, "He stood as the substitute for man, who was under sentence as a traitor, a rebel. Hence Christ died as a malefactor, in the place of the traitors." {17MR 340.1} Christ's death does not save us, do you agree?

APL,
No, I don't. Salvation is a divine act which demands a human response. There is a divine and a human side in salvation; that's why sinners will die, even though Christ died for them. But it was Christ's blood which purchased salvation.

Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #154883
08/12/13 02:18 AM
08/12/13 02:18 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Rosangela, Christ was circumcised as man's substitute. Jesus was presented to the Lord in Jerusalem at about the age of 40 days as man's substitute. Do you agree?

No, I don't. These things have no influence on our salvation.

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