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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: kland]
#154707
08/06/13 09:12 PM
08/06/13 09:12 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Right. So does anyone do the destroying? Would that be synonymous with killing in this context?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: asygo]
#154785
08/09/13 01:26 PM
08/09/13 01:26 PM
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It says the sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. Whether this is one of those cases where you say destroying means killing or one of those cases where you say it doesn't, I do not know.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: kland]
#154786
08/09/13 01:29 PM
08/09/13 01:29 PM
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Here's something I came across: Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
What does it mean to make his ministers a flame of fire?
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: kland]
#154787
08/09/13 05:45 PM
08/09/13 05:45 PM
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It says the sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. Whether this is one of those cases where you say destroying means killing or one of those cases where you say it doesn't, I do not know. So, we have two options here: - destroying = killing
- destroying = destructive non-killing
And this leaves us with two interpretations: - God does not kill. The sinner kills himself.
- God does not "destructive non-kill." The sinner "destructive non-kills" himself.
The first option says that the sinner gives himself eternal death; it's not God's doing. The second option leaves it possible that God is responsible for making sure that there are no immortal sinners. Which option do you think EGW was teaching here? I go with the second option.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: asygo]
#154828
08/10/13 06:33 AM
08/10/13 06:33 AM
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Arnold,
You mean you don't believe that sinners want to clean up their own mess? Sinners won't be honorable enough to "self destruct" for the sake of having a pure universe again?
Oh...I though God would be off the hook and not need to do anything more than watch until everything was automagically made right again. In fact, how is it that the sinners are raised to life again? Can sin just do that too?
Why would God have been on trial in such a scenario, anyhow?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154834
08/10/13 12:43 PM
08/10/13 12:43 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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To do what God tells us not to do, or not to do what He tells us to do, is to go in the way of death. This is not because God punishes with death those who do not obey Him, but because sin itself brings forth death. Sin is the evil seed of which death is the bitter fruit. {June 12, 1902 EJW, PTUK 378.6} This was proven on the cross.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154846
08/11/13 07:43 AM
08/11/13 07:43 AM
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Active Member 2021
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To do what God tells us not to do, or not to do what He tells us to do, is to go in the way of death. This is not because God punishes with death those who do not obey Him, but because sin itself brings forth death. Sin is the evil seed of which death is the bitter fruit. {June 12, 1902 EJW, PTUK 378.6} This was proven on the cross. Jesus was sinless. Somehow He died anyway. We are told how this happened. What a truth is presented as we gaze upon Jesus in connection with the cross of Calvary, as we see this Wonderful, this Counselor, this mysterious Victim, stooping beneath the amazing burden of our race! That the transgressor might have another trial, that men might be brought into favor with God the Father, the eternal Son of God interposed Himself to bear the punishment of transgression. One clothed with humanity, who was yet one with the Deity, was our ransom. The very earth shook and reeled at the spectacle of God's dear Son suffering the wrath of God for man's transgression. The heavens were clothed in sackcloth to hide the sight of the Divine Sufferer. {LHU 153.3}
The love of a holy God is an amazing principle, which can stir the universe in our behalf during the hours of our probation and trial. But after the season of our probation, if we are found transgressors of God's law, the God of love will be found a minister of vengeance. God makes no compromise with sin. The disobedient will be punished. The wrath of God fell upon His beloved Son as Christ hung upon the cross of Calvary in the transgressor's place. The love of God now reaches out to embrace the lowest, vilest sinner that will come to Christ with contrition. It reaches out to transform the sinner into an obedient, faithful child of God; but not a soul can be saved if he continues in sin. {1SM 313.1} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154852
08/11/13 02:42 PM
08/11/13 02:42 PM
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OP
SDA
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Jesus was sinless. Somehow He died anyway. We are told how this happened. This is a remarkable admission on your part that you have no idea how it happened, for what say the scriptures? 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation. Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses. EGW: "By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. " And it is a mystery why He died? Some how he died anyway? Did the Father execute the son? This is a pagan idea. Take all of what she writes, don't just pick and choose! Had his suffering consisted in bodily pain alone, then his death was no more painful than that of some of the martyrs; but bodily pain was only a small part of the agony of the beloved Son of God as he hung upon the cross. The sins of the world were upon him, and also the sense of his Father's wrath against the sinner, as he suffered the penalty of the law. It was these that crushed his divine soul. It was the hiding of his Father's face, a feeling that his own dear Father had forsaken him as he drank the cup which the sinner so richly merited, that brought despair to his soul. The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realized and keenly felt by the innocent, suffering Man of Calvary. He was oppressed by the powers of darkness, and had not one ray of light to brighten the future. His mental agony on this account was so great that man can have but a faint conception of it. {BEcho, January 1, 1887 par. 9} The Father DID NOT execute the sin. SIN killed the Son of God, our sin-bearer.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154857
08/11/13 03:22 PM
08/11/13 03:22 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Posts: 5,636
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You mean you don't believe that sinners want to clean up their own mess? I'm fairly certain the sin does not clean up after itself. I think God cleans up.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154858
08/11/13 03:27 PM
08/11/13 03:27 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
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To do what God tells us not to do, or not to do what He tells us to do, is to go in the way of death. This is not because God punishes with death those who do not obey Him, but because sin itself brings forth death. Sin is the evil seed of which death is the bitter fruit. {June 12, 1902 EJW, PTUK 378.6} This was proven on the cross. And who makes the seeds grow and bear fruit? Doesn't the Bible say that we plant the seeds, we may even water, but God is responsible for growth? If left to my natural desires, I would love to plant the seeds of sin but never let them bear fruit. Apparently, the fruit-bearing is beyond the sinner's control.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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