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Re: God or Satan?
#15501
08/31/05 04:55 AM
08/31/05 04:55 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote: Considering the Bible and EGW, the principle seems to be true, because EGW always makes clear when God does something and when He permits something.
I'm curious as to why you think this is the case. You seem to be confused as to what the Bible means when it says God does something, yet the confusion goes away when you read the Spirit of Prophesy. But given that the same Spirit inspired the one as the other, why should this be the case?
Also if one considers how God communicates what He does, it seems to me natural that any prophet, whether a Bible prophet or EGW, would describe God as doing that which He permits.
For example, consider the flood. God must have shown Ellen White what happened in vision. There's no other way she could have known what happened. So she saw, for example, the earth opening up and the waters of the deep erupting, and the flood happening. Why would she not describe this as something which God was doing? She is describing what she saw in vision.
For example, consider the Early Writing visions regarding the destruction of the wicked. They are full of images of God destroying them with fire. This makes it sound like its something God is doing. Yet when we read about the same even in the Desire of Ages, we see a completely different picture:
quote: This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}
Here she makes clear that God gives them over to the result of their choice ("they receive the results of their own choice"), that it is they, not He, who causes their death ("God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.") and that it is His glory which results in their death ("the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked" DA 108).
Here's another example. Regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, EGW writes:
quote: Men will continue to erect expensive buildings, costing millions of money; special attention will be called to their architectural beauty, and the firmness and solidity with which they are constructed; but the Lord has instructed me that despite the unusual firmness and expensive display, these buildings will share the fate of the temple in Jerusalem. That magnificent structure fell. Angels of God were sent to do the work of destruction, so that one stone was not left one upon another that was not thrown down (MS 35, 1906).
This makes it sound like God destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, doesn't it? He send His angels to "do the work of destruction". Yet in the Great Controversy we read:
quote: The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 35,36)
So it's not God, but Satan. We have exactly the same situation as the Bible. Sometimes she ascribes the same act to God, and sometimes to Satan.
Here's another example:
quote: Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work."
This is refering to the wrath of God to be poured out upon the wicked in Revelation. She explains that it means for God to show that He is the living God; He does this by giving the wicked over to the control of Satan.
Here's another example:
quote: While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof.(EW 280)
When Jesus ceases His intercession, what happens? The restraint is removed, and Satan has control of the finally impenitent; the plagues are poured out; their is nothing to stay the wrath of God. You seem to have the idea these are describing different events, with God and Satan working hand in hand as it were, doing exactly the same thing. It seems to me a much more natural reading of the above is that it is talking about the same thing, which is what happens when Christ ceases His ministration:
1)The restraint is removed; 2)Satan is given control of the impenitent; 3)Which is God's wrath; 4)Which is the pouring out of the plagues.
If you compare this with the above quote where God shows that He is the living God, you can see the similarities, with references to their cup of iniquity being full, etc.
I could give more examples of the same thing. At times she speaks of God doing an act actively, and at other times passively, just like the Bible does. The Bible is no less clear than she.
There's still the same problem to face. Given that sometimes EGW speaks of God doing an act actively, and the same act passively, how do we know if God was active or not? We would have to go by the principle that God is active, unless she describes Him as passive elsewhere, wouldn't we?
What about if she only describes God as active? Do we need to wait for God to send another prophet to shed light on what she wrote?
It seems to me the principles that the Bible is its own interpreter; that God has revealed His character in His Son Jesus Christ; and that God presents Himself as doing that which He permits are sufficient to our understanding what is happening.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15502
08/31/05 01:09 PM
08/31/05 01:09 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Let me see if I can be clearer.
“If a ‘bad’ act is ascribed to God alone by inspiration, then God is the being responsible”.
In the case of God sending a strong delusion or sending a lying spirit, the “bad” act is ascribed only to God, therefore, according to your principle, God would be the being responsible (if we consider just the incident itself). However, God cannot be the being responsible because, if you examine the whole context of the Bible, you see that God desires all men to be saved and God cannot lie. So I don’t see that this principle works when applied only to the Bible. If it is applied to the Bible and SOP together, it might work. I will try to expand on Ellen White later.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15503
08/31/05 09:02 PM
08/31/05 09:02 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
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quote: In the case of God sending a strong delusion or sending a lying spirit, the “bad” act is ascribed only to God, therefore, according to your principle, God would be the being responsible (if we consider just the incident itself). However, God cannot be the being responsible because, if you examine the whole context of the Bible, you see that God desires all men to be saved and God cannot lie. So I don’t see that this principle works when applied only to the Bible.
When speaking of God's lying, it's not that God cannot lie in the sense that He does not have the power to do so, but He will not lie because that is contrary to His character. So we can say in the whole context of the Bible, God desires all men to be saved, and God will not lie. Similarly we could also say that God desires all men to be saved, and will not kill. Unless lying is morally less objectionable than killing.
I'll await your comments regarding the Spirit of Prophesy.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15504
09/02/05 01:06 PM
09/02/05 01:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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quote: Similarly we could also say that God desires all men to be saved, and will not kill. Unless lying is morally less objectionable than killing.
God desires all men to be saved, but there are circumstances in which there is no longer any possibility to save them. However, although they themselves can no longer be saved, they can cause many others to be lost. If by removing the life of incorrigible sinners God can avoid those who can still be saved to be lost, what do you think God should do? “[God] cuts off those who are determined upon rebellion, that they may not lead others to ruin. ... It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgments upon millions. In order to save the many, He must punish the few.” {PP 325}
“The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though he executes judgment upon the transgressors of his law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: ‘The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act.’ The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882}
On the other hand, if those who are already lost are wholly given into the merciless power of the arch rebel as he degrades their quality of life to that of a living death - what is the loving, humane thing for God to do?
“Thus the Lord reveals to the whole human family that it is possible to go so far in sin and disgraceful transgression of His law, that it becomes necessary for Him to limit human life, and interpose in His wrath to prevent their spoiling one another in continual disobedience and defiance of His law" {21MR 65.2}
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Re: God or Satan?
#15505
09/02/05 01:14 PM
09/02/05 01:14 PM
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Brazil
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About the quotes of Ellen White you presented. quote: So she saw, for example, the earth opening up and the waters of the deep erupting, and the flood happening. Why would she not describe this as something which God was doing? She is describing what she saw in vision.
She saw many natural disasters – some she definitely attributed to Satan and some she definitely attributed to God. How did she distinguish who was doing what?
quote: For example, consider the Early Writing visions regarding the destruction of the wicked. They are full of images of God destroying them with fire. This makes it sound like its something God is doing. Yet when we read about the same even in the Desire of Ages, we see a completely different picture
Long after the writing of the Desire of Ages, she writes:
“Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. The wicked ‘shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.’ All are punished ‘according to their deeds.’” {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 12}
There will be fire, and probably the fire will be caused by God’s glory.
quote: This makes it sound like God destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, doesn't it? He send His angels to "do the work of destruction". Yet in the Great Controversy we read:
The passage of The Great Controversy you quoted says nothing about the temple. It was destroyed by a fire and EGW says angels aided in its destruction. Perhaps God didn’t want the place where He had once dwelt to be invaded by pagans. “Like one entranced, he [Titus] looked from the crest of Olivet upon the magnificent temple, and gave command that not one stone of it be touched. Before attempting to gain possession of this stronghold, he made an earnest appeal to the Jewish leaders not to force him to defile the sacred place with blood. If they would come forth and fight in any other place, no Roman should violate the sanctity of the temple. In vain were the efforts of Titus to save the temple; One greater than he had declared that not one stone was to be left upon another. The blind obstinacy of the Jewish leaders, and the detestable crimes perpetrated within the besieged city, excited the horror and indignation of the Romans, and Titus at last decided to take the city by storm. He determined, however, that if possible, it should be saved from destruction. But his commands were disregarded. After he had retired to his tent at night, the Jews, sallying from the temple, attacked the soldiers without. In the struggle a firebrand was flung by a soldier through an opening in the porch, and immediately the cedar-lined chambers about the holy house were in a blaze. Titus rushed to the place, followed by his generals and legionaries, and commanded the soldiers to quench the flames. His words were unheeded. In their fury the soldiers hurled blazing brands into the chambers adjoining the temple... The whole summit of the hill which commanded the city blazed like a volcano. One after another the buildings fell in, with a tremendous crash, and were swallowed up in the fiery abyss. The roofs of cedar were like sheets of flame; the gilded pinnacles shone like spikes of red light; the gate towers sent up tall columns of flame and smoke.” {YI, November 13, 1906 par. 7}
The plagues we have already discussed although, as I said, I’m still studying the subject.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15506
09/02/05 03:28 PM
09/02/05 03:28 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom: Similarly we could also say that God desires all men to be saved, and will not kill. Unless lying is morally less objectionable than killing.
R:God desires all men to be saved, but there are circumstances in which there is no longer any possibility to save them. However, although they themselves can no longer be saved, they can cause many others to be lost. If by removing the life of incorrigible sinners God can avoid those who can still be saved to be lost, what do you think God should do?
Tom:I think it would be good to make clear what we agree one and what we disagree on. I agree that limiting life is merciful for the reasons quoted. We agree on the principles involved when God acts to limit life. Where we disagree is limited to *how* God accomplishes this.
I believe that there are thousands of things which can kill us from which God is constantly protecting us. I also believe that it is necessary for God to actively sustain us to keep us alive. I see there are two ways in which God can act to limit life which are consistent with His character:
1)He can remove His protecting hand. 2)He can remove His sustaining hand.
I see no need or sense in God taking up an arm, or some similar weapon, to kill somebody. To do such a thing both implicitly denies that God must protect and sustain us, and is inconsistent with His character as revealed in His Son.
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Re: God or Satan?
#15507
09/02/05 03:50 PM
09/02/05 03:50 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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R: About the quotes of Ellen White you presented.
Old Tom:So she saw, for example, the earth opening up and the waters of the deep erupting, and the flood happening. Why would she not describe this as something which God was doing? She is describing what she saw in vision.
R:She saw many natural disasters – some she definitely attributed to Satan and some she definitely attributed to God. How did she distinguish who was doing what?
Tom:Presumably is she saw Satan taking action, she ascribed it to Satan, and if not ascribed it to God. It would most likely depend upon how God chose to reveal the action to her. However, God presents Himself as doing that which He permits, so even when she, or a Bible author, describes God as causing a natural disaster to occur, this should be taken into account.
Old Tom:For example, consider the Early Writing visions regarding the destruction of the wicked. They are full of images of God destroying them with fire. This makes it sound like its something God is doing. Yet when we read about the same even in the Desire of Ages, we see a completely different picture
R:Long after the writing of the Desire of Ages, she writes:
T:Is this a suggestion that she was revising her view in the Desire of Ages? The Desire of Ages selection is not a description of what happens in terms of a vision, but an explanation of the principles involved, which are:
1)God does not use an arbitrary act of power to destroy the wicked. 2)God does not destroy the wicked; they destroy themselves. 3)The wicked cut themselves off from God, who alone is the source of life. 4)The wicked form characters so our of harmony with God's that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. 5)The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, destroys the wicked.
The last principle is particulary important as it makes clear that it is not an arbitrary action ("arbitrary action" here meaning something specifically directed against the wicked) of God which causes the death of the wicked, since the same thing He does (reveals His glory) gives life to the righteous. This makes it clear that the wicked are responsible for their own destruction, because they have brought about the situation (i.e. formed characters out of harmony with God's, so that His presence becomes a consuming fire to them) which results in that destruction.
Any revelation, whether before, after, or at the same time, must be in harmony with these principles.
R: “Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. The wicked ‘shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.’ All are punished ‘according to their deeds.’” {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 12}
There will be fire, and probably the fire will be caused by God’s glory.
Tom:The earth will be purified by fire, and I like your suggestion that this fire is caused by God's glory. It can also be seen as the results of God's removing His protecting hand from the earth, allowing the results of sin to be manifest. In a way similar to how God protected the earth from the flood, until He allowed it to happen, God is protecting the earth from fire, until He allows that to happen. This seems very possible to me, and would be in harmony with God's character.
I assume the wicked are already dead when the earth is purified by fire. I see no possible way to harmonize the destruction of the wicked with other inspiration (consider especially the above itemized principles) if one assumes the wicked are alive when the earth is purified by fire.
Another problem is that if the wicked are still alive when this happened, they would all die at the same time, but we know that their punishment is proportional; some suffer for a few hours, others for many days. On the other hand, the idea of proportionality is in harmony with the concept the death of the wicked is caused by a revelation of God's glory, since the suffering involved would be proporitonal to the light one had/sin one committed.
Old Tom:This makes it sound like God destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, doesn't it? He send His angels to "do the work of destruction". Yet in the Great Controversy we read:
R:The passage of The Great Controversy you quoted says nothing about the temple. It was destroyed by a fire and EGW says angels aided in its destruction. Perhaps God didn’t want the place where He had once dwelt to be invaded by pagans.
Tom: I could have quoted the whole chapter, but that would have been a bit long. I quoted what I did to establish that the destruction of Jerusalem did not take place by God's actively doing something, nor the angels actively doing something, but rather by God's permitting that destruction to take place. Yet EGW elsewhere describes that very event as being accomplished by the active work of His angels. This shows that EGW uses the same principle as the Bible, in using active voice to describe God's actions, where God is actually not doing the given deed, but permitting it to happen.
And the reason for this is very simple. She is simply describing what God has presented to her in vision. God presents in vision angels taking apart the walls of the temple. Then in the GC chapter she explains what this means.
This is exactly the same thing happening where the Bible describes God as doing something active yet the Spirit of Prophesy describes the event as God allowing the thing to happen. The Bible does the same thing as well; that is, it will present an event as God actively doing it in one place, while in another describing the same event as God permitting it.
There's no difference between the Bible and the Spirit of Prophesy in this regard, which was my point. You made the assertion that the Bible is unclear as to when God is actually doing something, whereas the Spirit of Prophesy is always clear, but this is a groundless claim. There is no basis to assume that God used a completely different standard of revelation for the Spirit of Prophesy than for the Bible.
Your principle, if followed, would lead to the conclusion that we can't really know what is happening in Scripture unless we read the Spirit of Prophesy. What I suggest instead of this is that we make use of the principles laid out in the Spirit of Prophesy (which principles are also laid out in Scripture) to understand the Scripture. In this way the Spirit of Prophesy is neither inferior to the Bible, nor superior, but in harmony with it.
R:The plagues we have already discussed although, as I said, I’m still studying the subject.
Tom:That's fine. Any one example I cited would be sufficient to establish the point, which is simply that Ellen White, as well as the Scriptures, ascribes things to God which He has permitted.
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