While I have a fairly good working knowledge of the issues of linear time on a round earth, I may be having a mental block with the relationships of the vernal equinox and the new moon to the earth.

The Jewish calendar begins on the new moon after the vernal equinox. Whether you go by the real new moon or the sighting of the new moon, it shouldn't make much difference to the relationship.

The equinox can be defined when the sun is in the same plane as the earth's equator. This would occur at a precise theoretical point. I've also seen it defined when the amount of daylight equals the amount of night.

Is it possible for people in Jerusalem during Bible times to know when the sun is at the plane of the equator, that the day and night portions are the same at the equator, of which would be different in Jerusalem?

Or is it when the day and night lengths are equal in Jerusalem? I read that given an east-west line, such as a road, when the sun sets dead centered on it, that is when the day and night are equal.

Does this happen everywhere at the same time? If a day is 24 hours, then when the daylength is 12 hours, would be when day and night are equal.

Looking at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=110 and searching for March for various places, I find the following when the day length is close to 12 hours:

Jerusalem, Israel - Mar 17, 2013

Toronto, Ontario, Canada - Mar 17, 2013

Dallas, Texas, United States - Mar 16, 2013

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia - Mar 24, 2013

Nukualofa, Tonga - Mar 26, 2013

Caracas, Venezuela - Mar 9, 2013


As you can see, the point when daytime is equal to nighttime varies considerably around the globe. I'm not sure I found the extremes since I don't completely understand it.

The new moon could have occurred between March 9 and March 26, within the ranges of the vernal equinox. Those with early dates for the equinox would then count the occurrence of the new moon as the beginning of the new month. However, those with the later dates for the vernal equinox would have to wait until the next new moon, since the new moon happened before the equinox.

Am I thinking through that part correctly?

Just found a later date:
Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - May 1, 2013

That's about 53 days difference! There exists some years where two new moons would occur within that time frame.

I'm not really up on this subject. But aren't days and nights pretty much equal all year around at the equator, while the further away from the equator one travels the greater the difference becomes.

I know up north here in Canada there is a sense of joy around March 21 as we know the days are getting longer than the night, and then a sense of regret around September 21 as we know the nights are going to be longer than the days. Though I've never actually measured the exact number of hours.

Also wouldn't landscape have something to do with it. The sun rises considerably later and goes down considerably earlier in mountainous terrain, than on the prairies.

Also could the difference when that "equal day and night" occur, have something to do with the tilt of the earth and a shift of the poles from where they are marked on the map, --The magnetic north pole is currently shifting almost 40 miles a year -- be messing up the calculations?

Well, if you know there are times that the days are longer than the nights and there are other times the days are shorter than the nights, there exists some time in between when the days are about the same length as the night. I don't see the landscape having any relevance to the general issue as that also is an issue with when does the sun set. Does the sun set on a blind guy? The calculation would be on a general plane of the earth and the general lineup of the sun. It would either be that general plane at the equator or at the general plane of each location.

Yes, the tilt of the earth is the main thing which causes the sun appear to move from pole to pole. The sun doesn't move, but as the earth makes it's annual revolution around the sun, it's tilted axis causes the sun to shine differently on the earth.

Which brings up an interesting thought regarding the idea presented that the earth tilted on it's axis at the flood. If the earth should be perfectly vertical, there would be no spring and fall equinox. The relation of the length of day and night would remain the same throughout the year, assuming a year could even be calculated - (I suppose with the stars?)

As far as the magnetic pole goes, due west would mean in relation to the earth and not the compass. However, how would one calculate west? They could still calculate equal day and nights, and then at that point calculate west, but then it would be unnecessary.

kland,
Biblically the emphasis is on the abib (ripeness of the barley), and not on the vernal equinox. However, the ripeness of the barley is tied to the vernal equinox, so it's improbable that the new year could start before the vernal equinox.
In Babylon, where astronomy was advanced, astronomers developed a regular system of intercalation of embolimic months in such a way as to ensure that 1 Nisanu always began on the first crescent moon on or after the vernal equinox. Perhaps after the Babylonian captivity the Israelites brought this practice to Palestine. Thus, an Abib Report is preserved in the Talmud, dating to the first generation after the destruction of the Second Temple, which says: "The year may be intercalated on three grounds: 'aviv [i.e.the ripeness of barley], fruits of trees, and the equinox. On two of these grounds it should be intercalated, but not on one of them alone."
Anyway, the equinox could be determined by astronomical calculations. Thus, Josephus says that the Passover sacrifice is on the 14th of the first month of the year, Nisan, "when the sun is in Aries" (Antiquities 3.10.5).

The process is the following:

How does that apply in the Southern hemisphere? Ripeness of barley and fruits of trees would not happen at the equinox. As for that matter, what about anywhere north or south of Jerusalem? Does this mean different beginnings of the year for each location?

This doesn't have any application outside of Jerusalem. This was a Jewish calendar for Jewish feasts. The wave sheaf of barley had to be presented at the temple, in Jerusalem. The Jews in other parts of the world had to receive information from Jerusalem. And this arrangement should last only until Christ's death.

Jerusalem is the point of reference I agree. I think the Feast of Tabernacles and New Moons which we're told will be celebrated in the New Earth may well be calculated using Jerusalem as the reference point and using the same marker - the vernal equinox. The New Moons still need a starting point, a New Year, like the feasts do because celebrating the New Moons implies that a particular month in the yearly cycle is being observed.

"using Jerusalem as the reference point "

You mean the current literal Jerusalem? I understand the earth will be renewed. But yet, the new Jerusalem seems to come right down on the old.... ?

I'm not sure why there needs to be an annual starting point for a new moon since a new moon is, well, a new moon, no matter how many occur in a year. However, if you mean to determine a Feast of Tabernacles for a certain month, then that may well be.


If the reference point is for Jerusalem, then this would mean it was indeed a Jewish calendar with no relevance to anyone else elsewhere and not that those elsewhere were failing to follow the "true calendar". That it was only a Jerusalem calendar.




"And this arrangement should last only until Christ's death."

Any definitive determination for that? I think, with the agreement that Jerusalem being a reference point, is a good start. Not that it'd do much good for some, but I'm looking for a definite answer which would be hard to dispute.

Through Moses, God said He would choose a place and put His name there. Jerusalem is the place He chose. It makes sense to measure time in reference to that place because 1) that's where God dwelt; 2) it's where He will dwell eternally; 3) it is where His people assembled at divinely appointed times; and 4) it is where His people will assemble at similar divinely appointed times. So the Jewish calendar has a local reference point - Mt Zion - but it is universal in nature; it's where the twelve tribes that are now scattered abroad over the face of the earth, (James 1:1) will gather to the holy assemblies of the first born. Hebrews 12:22 and 23 and Ps. 122:3 and 4.

Mark, Ezekiel saw the glory of the Lord depart from Jerusalem. The physical Jerusalem today is no longer the place where he name of the Lord is anymore. It left during the time of Jeremiah when the Lord made it known through him that He will depart from Jerusalem(Jer 7:11-14) because of the corruption. Just like it departed from Shiloh(1Sam 4:21, Ps 78:59-69) for the same reason and never was seen there again. Then after Ezekiel saw the glory depart from Jerusalem and went to Mt. Olives which is located East side of the city. .

Ez 10:18 “Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims…Ez 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. 23. And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which [is] on the east side of the city.

Here’s some interesting notes about Mount of Olives :

a) It is 2000 cubits from the city which is considered “outside the camp” and “a Sabbath day’s journey.”
b) It is said that this is where the ashes of the red heifer was stored(Num 19:3)
c) It is the place where David made his sacrifice(2 Sam 15:30) which b) & c) both pointed to Jesus sacrifice.
d) It is the place where Jesus often went to pray
e) Also the place He ascended in sight of his disciples 40 days after He died(Acts 1:12).

Then from the Mt.Olives the next place that the glory of the Lord was seen and manifested was at the upper room at Pentecost and the peple thre received an deposit of the Spirit.

So what you say above in various places is not true since Jeremiah & Ezekiel time. The old Jerusalem is no longer the place where His glory has been seen (or name is)and it is not prophecied that it will ever return there. Revelation talk that the glory of the Lord will be in the NEW Jerusalem which is composed of the body of believers. They are the living stones that compose the temple of the Lord and it is upon their forehead that the name of the Lord will be.

In regards to the sighting of the New Moon in Jerusalem, I am a feast keeper and have the Karaite Korner moon sighting monthly newsletter. However I had never look at this with this angle. You have answered a lingering question I had for a long time. Tx.