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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155280
08/21/13 09:46 PM
08/21/13 09:46 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"All have sinned." Including infants. We choose to be saved.


How has an infant sinned the moment it comes out of the mother?


Johann,

That's a faithless question, because the Bible says "all have sinned." Either you don't believe the Bible, or you don't believe that babies are people. It's one or the other.

In other words, whether we like to think ourselves capable of understanding all the reasons for "how," "why," or "wherefore," the Bible is a superior guide and support to human reasoning. I have presented here on this forum some of the "how," but perhaps not all like to accept it at true.

If you hear people complaining all the time about things, do you find yourself tending to resonate with their view? Now, consider that the newborn has been "resonating" with its mother for many months--is that mother perfect? Hardly. And the baby has picked up on the mother's habits.

One point that must be made clear: it is possible to sin without knowing it. If one is ignorant of the law of God, the law is still the law. Sin is transgression of the law, NOT "willful, knowing transgression of the law." We might all agree that the baby does not realize his or her own sinfulness. He or she may not have willfully sinned, and likely has little to no knowledge of the law of God at birth. Such ignorance does not mean it cannot have transgressed the law.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Your comments are on a question never asked.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155282
08/21/13 09:54 PM
08/21/13 09:54 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Green, is your thinking too close to the Roman Catholic concept - without realizing it - for you to understand the question I asked?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155283
08/21/13 09:55 PM
08/21/13 09:55 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Johann
Your comments are on a question never asked.

Johann,

Perhaps the question was overly broad then. Perhaps it would be like asking "how has Johann sinned?" Perhaps it is not for us to judge. Only God knows.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155284
08/21/13 09:57 PM
08/21/13 09:57 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Johann
Green, is your thinking too close to the Roman Catholic concept - without realizing it - for you to understand the question I asked?

Perhaps Johann's thinking is close to that of the Roman Catholics--only the priests should interpret the Bible to the people. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155285
08/21/13 09:59 PM
08/21/13 09:59 PM
Johann  Offline
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Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Johann
Green, is your thinking too close to the Roman Catholic concept - without realizing it - for you to understand the question I asked?

Perhaps Johann's thinking is close to that of the Roman Catholics--only the priests should interpret the Bible to the people. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Interesting way of avoiding an honest reply!


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155318
08/22/13 04:17 PM
08/22/13 04:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"All have sinned." Including infants. We choose to be saved.

How has an infant sinned the moment it comes out of the mother?

Excellent question. It's hard to imagine sweet, innocent, helpless things doing anything wrong. Infants have legitimate needs - food, water, love, comfort, etc. However, there is "none righteous," all are "by nature the children of wrath," therefore, infants cannot prevent themselves from sinning as they seek to meet and express their needs. I'm in California right now visiting my cousin and his family. They have an infant. So cute. But, man oh man, she sure can throw a fit. Her screams remind me of horror shows. Wow. I'm certain Jesus does not hold her accountable for her scary outbursts. He paid the price for her sins. But eventually she'll reach a point where she must repent or perish.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #155319
08/22/13 04:53 PM
08/22/13 04:53 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Yes - Ephesians 2:3 ..."by nature the children of wrath"...

Exactly - and HOW does that happen. I know, green and asygo do not like it when I ask how, but are really in the dark? It is in our nature, our DNA.

Last edited by APL; 08/22/13 07:06 PM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: APL] #155323
08/22/13 07:59 PM
08/22/13 07:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I take "nature" to mean what we do by default - naturally, automatically, instinctively. To do otherwise we must be born again and partake of the "divine nature," which enables us to use our faculties of mind and body to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The result of acting out either "nature" is character - old man or new man.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #155324
08/22/13 08:03 PM
08/22/13 08:03 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"All have sinned." Including infants. We choose to be saved.

How has an infant sinned the moment it comes out of the mother?

Excellent question. It's hard to imagine sweet, innocent, helpless things doing anything wrong. Infants have legitimate needs - food, water, love, comfort, etc. However, there is "none righteous," all are "by nature the children of wrath," therefore, infants cannot prevent themselves from sinning as they seek to meet and express their needs. I'm in California right now visiting my cousin and his family. They have an infant. So cute. But, man oh man, she sure can throw a fit. Her screams remind me of horror shows. Wow. I'm certain Jesus does not hold her accountable for her scary outbursts. He paid the price for her sins. But eventually she'll reach a point where she must repent or perish.


Sure glad there is a friend here on this forum who does not ridicule that question, but is willing to attack it head on. Thank you, Mike! Because this is an interesting question.

When you say that you are certain Jesus does not hold her accountable for her scary outbursts, you say that He has paid a price for her before she reaches accountability. Some people call that forensic justification. I will not argue with you what you call it, but Jesus does something for all men here on earth.
I´m sure you disagree with Augustine of Hippo that what he calls the Original Sin is not discharged through a baptism right after birth, although this concept seems quite common among many Protestants.

On the other hand, are you in agreement with St. Augustine how the sin is transmitted, which he based on Psalms 51:5? Was his a true Biblical interpretation?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #155325
08/22/13 08:12 PM
08/22/13 08:12 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I take "nature" to mean what we do by default - naturally, automatically, instinctively. To do otherwise we must be born again and partake of the "divine nature," which enables us to use our faculties of mind and body to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The result of acting out either "nature" is character - old man or new man.


But doesn't it say in Steps to Christ that by the use of your will power and good education you are able to learn to make many right choices and even live a beautiful life? (My own wording)


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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