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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155336
08/23/13 01:18 AM
08/23/13 01:18 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Johann, you're welcome. It's important to discuss truth in a civil way - truth can afford it. Seems to me we are guilty of the sins we ourselves commit - not the ones our parents or ancestors commit. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20. Infants sin because they are born that way. They cannot not sin. They must experience rebirth, abide in Jesus, partake of the divine nature, and then they can imitate Jesus' example of "righteousness and true holiness". Steps to Christ describes it very nicely.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155341
08/23/13 06:45 AM
08/23/13 06:45 AM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I take "nature" to mean what we do by default - naturally, automatically, instinctively. To do otherwise we must be born again and partake of the "divine nature," which enables us to use our faculties of mind and body to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The result of acting out either "nature" is character - old man or new man.


But doesn't it say in Steps to Christ that by the use of your will power and good education you are able to learn to make many right choices and even live a beautiful life? (My own wording)

But here they are powerless.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: asygo] #155347
08/23/13 08:01 AM
08/23/13 08:01 AM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I take "nature" to mean what we do by default - naturally, automatically, instinctively. To do otherwise we must be born again and partake of the "divine nature," which enables us to use our faculties of mind and body to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The result of acting out either "nature" is character - old man or new man.


But doesn't it say in Steps to Christ that by the use of your will power and good education you are able to learn to make many right choices and even live a beautiful life? (My own wording)

But here they are powerless.


Are you kidding, asygo? Why?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #155348
08/23/13 08:08 AM
08/23/13 08:08 AM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Johann, you're welcome. It's important to discuss truth in a civil way - truth can afford it. Seems to me we are guilty of the sins we ourselves commit - not the ones our parents or ancestors commit. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20. Infants sin because they are born that way. They cannot not sin. They must experience rebirth, abide in Jesus, partake of the divine nature, and then they can imitate Jesus' example of "righteousness and true holiness". Steps to Christ describes it very nicely.


Isn't that kind of double dealing by a "righteous" God?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: APL] #155349
08/23/13 09:24 AM
08/23/13 09:24 AM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: APL
Yes - Ephesians 2:3 ..."by nature the children of wrath"...

Exactly - and HOW does that happen. I know, green and asygo do not like it when I ask how, but are really in the dark? It is in our nature, our DNA.


DNA?

Recently I read that most of the food we eat is poisoned because the grain used most frequently has been manipulated to shorten the straw. So now I get unmanipulated breakfast cereal and bread. It is more expensive, but I feel the difference.

Biblical history indicates that the human lifespan and hight have both been shortened. Is there any kind of similarity or comparison?

Then there is also the question if Jesus was born with similar DNA to ours?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155358
08/23/13 04:50 PM
08/23/13 04:50 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Johann, you're welcome. It's important to discuss truth in a civil way - truth can afford it. Seems to me we are guilty of the sins we ourselves commit - not the ones our parents or ancestors commit. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20. Infants sin because they are born that way. They cannot not sin. They must experience rebirth, abide in Jesus, partake of the divine nature, and then they can imitate Jesus' example of "righteousness and true holiness". Steps to Christ describes it very nicely.

Isn't that kind of double dealing by a "righteous" God?

Not sure what you mean, pastor. Please explain. Thank you.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: asygo] #155359
08/23/13 04:59 PM
08/23/13 04:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
MM: I take "nature" to mean what we do by default - naturally, automatically, instinctively. To do otherwise we must be born again and partake of the "divine nature," which enables us to use our faculties of mind and body to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. The result of acting out either "nature" is character - old man or new man.

J: But doesn't it say in Steps to Christ that by the use of your will power and good education you are able to learn to make many right choices and even live a beautiful life? (My own wording)

A: But here they are powerless.

Powerless to change the heart, powerless to save, that's for sure.

Quote:
It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness. {SC 18.1}

However, the following insight is interesting:

Quote:
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155361
08/23/13 06:37 PM
08/23/13 06:37 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Are you kidding, asygo? Why?

It looks like MM took the words right out of my mouth, or more literally, my fingers.

Will power and education have their sphere, but that sphere does not include salvation. Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.

Last edited by asygo; 08/23/13 06:44 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155362
08/23/13 06:51 PM
08/23/13 06:51 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: APL
Yes - Ephesians 2:3 ..."by nature the children of wrath"...

Exactly - and HOW does that happen. I know, green and asygo do not like it when I ask how, but are really in the dark? It is in our nature, our DNA.


DNA?

Recently I read that most of the food we eat is poisoned because the grain used most frequently has been manipulated to shorten the straw. So now I get unmanipulated breakfast cereal and bread. It is more expensive, but I feel the difference.

Biblical history indicates that the human lifespan and hight have both been shortened. Is there any kind of similarity or comparison?

Then there is also the question if Jesus was born with similar DNA to ours?
Hebrews 2:16-18
16 For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

Jesus was "made like" his brothers. Yes, Jesus had similar DNA.

Yes, genetic manipulation leads to all kinds of problems. Google "BT toxin" and GMO and see the number of hits you find. EGW tells us that weeds are the result of "Satan's ingenious methods of amalgamation", that is genetic engineering.

We have had a tremendous fall off in life span and probably size. Two things come into play, genetics and epigenetics. Epigenetics have to do with genetic switching, turning on and off and moderating gene expression. Epigenetics can be changed, and we by our lifestyle change our epigenetic profile. Epigenetics can also turn on and off bad genes. The food we eat does affect our epigenetic profile, in a number of ways. Food also can expose us to mobile genetic elements which we can incorporate into our genomes via lateral gene transfer. Before the flood, the ages of the people were all fairly similar and long, living 900+ years. At the time of the flood, did the diet change? Yes it did!

Here is an interesting fact - we always speak about "the fall". But EGW says that we have had a series of "falls" each worse that the prior. And this has lead to the deterioration of the race. It is in the DNA.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: APL] #155379
08/24/13 01:21 AM
08/24/13 01:21 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
It seems partaking of the divine nature enables people to resist their DNA and imitate Jesus' godly traits of character.

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