Just a few questions in this confusing discussion:



Perhaps the strongest verse in the Bible? The final enemy. Does this "death" have any meaning without a relationship to something that is alive?

Would God make use of his final - or worst - enemy to achieve His purpose?

Well, Scripture says that God killed Saul?

Let us not forget that the inspired person who wrote that verse used the Hebrew language which was at his disposal. There are several strange things connected with this language which is difficult for us to understand, and that the word he used here, mumth, is in imperfect.

In western languages we have three tenses, past, present and future. In Hebrew there are only two tenses, perfect and imperfect. Perfect is a completed action, imperfect is an uncompleted action.

What does that mean, then, that God's action of killing Saul is an uncompleted action? Is Saul not fully dead yet? Is Scripture here indicating an immortal soul with an eternal burning hell?

Or does this verse show us that we need more of a total picture of God to understand Scripture, unless we want to be some "heretical" Christians?

There might be more to it than you think, right?

I don't know what more you are wanting.

Could you tell us what could possibly be the intent of Saul asking his armor bearer to thrust him through?

And if you believe in Ellen White, what about what Green listed that Saul was determined not to be taken alive. Would you consider that meaning any reasonable person should take the Bible to mean that asking someone to thrust you through means to end your life?


If you are saying that asking someone to thrust you through with a sword is not an intent to die and that then he falling on his sword was not what accomplished killing himself, then what about his armor bearer? He likewise fell on his sword and died. Are you also saying he did not kill himself nor intended to? That it is only speculative inference? It doesn't specifically say he killed himself. Did God kill Saul's armor bearer? They both died in the same way.

What I want you to see is that you are well able to perform solid research and mental gymnastics to arrive at truth. When you want to.

You want to prove that Saul killed himself, but you have no verse that plainly says "kill." You have a vast array of data and logic at your disposal to make your case. And you have made it quite convincingly. Bravo.

But in spite of all your God-given ability to find truth, you fail to accept the plain Word of God that He killed Saul. Open your eyes. It is not God's will that you use His gifts to deny His Word. It is another's will that you are fulfilling.

You and I have been at this for long enough for me to know the caliber of your scholarship. Your recent bouts of density are uncharacteristic.

Talk about mental gymnastics! Saul committed suicide and the Bible is clear.

1 Samuel 31:4-5 Then said Saul to his armor bearer, Draw your sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armor bearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell on it. 5 And when his armor bearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on his sword, and died with him.

EGW: “Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith.” When the man refused to lift his hand against the Lord’s anointed, Saul took his own life by falling upon his sword.{PP 681.4}

1 Chronicles 10:4-5 Then Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, so that these uncircumcised may not come and make sport of me." But his armor-bearer was unwilling, for he was terrified. So Saul took his own sword and fell on it. 5 When his armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword and died. 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the LORD in that he did not keep the command of the LORD; moreover, he had consulted a medium, seeking guidance, 14 and did not seek guidance from the LORD. Therefore the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

It is clear, Saul killed himself. On the surface, the 1 Chronicles 10:14 says God kills Saul. Dig deep to find the truth. God killed Saul just as He sent the serpents and destroyed Jerusalem.

In other words, God indeed sent serpents and God indeed destroyed Jerusalem.

Or are you saying God dissembled?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

God kills just like Jesus did when He was here on earth.

How did Jesus kill when He was here on earth?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Originally, you said Saul fell on his sword. Now that you found another verse, you are clinging to that one and ignoring the first one you found. You need a specific verse which says Saul killed himself. Well, can you find a specific verse saying what weapon God used to kill Saul? If no murder weapon can be identified, no crime was committed. Maybe you want to repent of your specificity requirement or some future posts may be rather interesting.


Along comes someone else and quotes:
He says it's quite obvious that God's word clearly says that an Amalekite killed Saul. God said it, he believes it, and therefore he can turn his brain off.

So which is it?
Is it what you originally listed that Saul killed himself?
Or is it what you found next that God killed Saul?
Or is it an Amalekite killed Saul?

Do you just pick one which matches what you think and go with it without regards to the others?

Or are there some other verses which may give other information? Like I said before, your lack of knowledge does not mean something isn't true. And if you had lack of knowledge concerning Saul, could there also be lack of knowledge concerning serpents in the desert? And even if you can't locate a specific verse, is there enough information in the Bible detailing the character of God that we can know he is not the destroyer, that if we come across something that sounds like God is destroying, we need to reevaluate it in terms of what we know God to be like?

And there it is. You will reject God's plain words because it doesn't match "what we know God to be like." You have a very high opinion of what you know. I hope you are never wrong, for it seem unlikely that you can ever learn anything that doesn't match what you already know.

kland, you are no fool, so stop acting like it. Would you take an Amalekite's word over God's word? Open your eyes. Your desire to keep your cherished opinion blinds you.

BTW, I told you Saul fell on his sword. Please stop saying that I deny it, or that I have changed my story.

Before I forget, Saul fell on his sword.

One more thing, Saul fell on his sword.

Your repeated attempts to paint a contradicting picture is sad. But it shows that you are not really trying to study and learn. You are merely trying to stir up contention with foolish arguments.

Tom and I disagreed, and sometimes quite vehemently, on this topic. But he never, ever lied about people. His conviction was so strong that he never needed straw man arguments. He took what people said, tried to understand them, then went from there, whether or not he agreed. The current crop of "God wouldn't hurt a fly" proponents does him a disservice.

With that, I bid you adieu. You and APL can discuss amongst yourselves.

He cursed a fig tree.