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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #155621
08/31/13 01:38 AM
08/31/13 01:38 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
We need eyesalve.

I've been vegan for over 15 years, with a few exceptions now and then. I hope my morning ritual has staved off B12 deficiency.

Keep up the exceptions!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155625
08/31/13 08:37 AM
08/31/13 08:37 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}


A fundamental part of the misunderstanding here involves the theology of the cross. Mrs. White said in the above quote that Jesus took our death penalty. The fact that there even was such a thing as a death penalty has to do with the immutable nature of God's law. God's law. Not Satan's law, not sin's, but God's. Sin did not create a law that required its adherents to die. God's law required this death.

It is interesting what Mrs. White says about the death penalty being executed in Israel as a lesson to us.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Another remarkable exhibition to the nations round about was the perfect order observed in the camp of the Israelites. They could see the cloud hovering over the place where the tabernacle was to be pitched; they observed the priests and other appointed agencies going about their special work, each one doing the part assigned him in the work of preparing the camp for the night. No one did anything that someone else should do. Whoever would have tried to do another man's work would have suffered the death penalty. Each one attended to his special duty. In the erecting of the tabernacle, part fitted to part, and the house of the Lord was set up with beautiful precision. Not a word was spoken, not an order given, excepting by the one in charge. No one was confused; everything was put together in accordance with the similitude shown to Moses in the mount. {LHU 145.5}


Really? Doing the work of someone else would result in death? Wow. I have to admit, I had never noticed this passage before. That seems like a rather strong measure to adopt. What if someone were sick, and needed a substitute? Perhaps exceptions would be made in such a case, I don't know. What I do know is that this quote speaks to the very-detailed nature of God and the very orderly system He sets in place. His law is not to be trifled with.

One more quote...

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In our day there are many who reject the creation Sabbath as a Jewish institution and urge that if it is to be kept, the penalty of death must be inflicted for its violation; but we see that blasphemy received the same punishment as did Sabbathbreaking. Shall we therefore conclude that the third commandment also is to be set aside as applicable only to the Jews? Yet the argument drawn from the death penalty applies to the third, the fifth, and indeed to nearly all the ten precepts, equally with the fourth. Though God may not now punish the transgression of His law with temporal penalties, yet His word declares that the wages of sin is death; and in the final execution of the judgment it will be found that death is the portion of those who violate His sacred precepts. {PP 409.2}


The Ten Commandments required obedience or death. The death penalty was explicitly stated for several of the commands, notably the fourth, fifth, and sixth, with others being more implicitly presented.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155626
08/31/13 08:48 AM
08/31/13 08:48 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Mrs. White tells us not to listen to those who would misrepresent these things to us.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Brethren, never allow anyone's ideas to unsettle your faith in regard to the order and harmony which should exist in the church. Many of you do not see all things clearly. The directions in regard to order in the tabernacle service were recorded that lessons might be drawn from it by all who should live upon the earth. Men were selected to do various parts of the work of setting up and taking down the tabernacle, and if one strayed in carelessly and put his hands to the work assigned to another, he was to be put to death. We serve the same God today. But the death penalty has been abolished; had it not been, there would not now be so much careless, disorderly work in His cause. The God of heaven is a God of order, and He requires all His followers to have rules and regulations, and to preserve order. All should have a perfect understanding of God's work. {5T 274.1}

It is unsafe to cherish doubt in the heart even for a moment. The seeds of doubt which Pharaoh sowed when he rejected the first miracle were allowed to grow, and they produced such an abundant harvest that all subsequent miracles could not persuade him that his position was wrong. He continued to venture on in his own course, going from one degree of questioning to another, and his heart became more and more hardened until he was called to look upon the cold, dead faces of the first-born. {5T 274.2}

God is at work, and we are not doing one half that must be done to prepare a people to stand in the day when the Son of man shall be revealed. Woe be to the man that shall in the least degree seek to hinder the work which God is doing. We must labor for others; we must try to weaken the hold of our brethren upon their earthly treasures; for many will sell their birthright to eternal life for worldly advantages. How much better to encourage them to lay up their treasure in heaven than complainingly to drop the words: "It is money, money, that these men are continually calling for; and they are getting rich by it." How sweet are words like these to the world-loving professor! How they strengthen his courage to withhold from God the proportion which belongs to Him and which should be returned to Him in tithes and offerings! The curse of the Lord will rest upon those who fail to render to Him His own. Let us work in harmony with God. His servants have a message to bear to money lovers; why should they not bear a close testimony in regard to bringing all the tithes into the storehouse, when the Lord Himself has set them the example? {5T 274.3}


Mrs. White speaks to the fact that we must not entertain doubts about God in our heart. She tells us God is a God of perfect order. She tells us the death penalty results when people are careless and out of order. She implies that it would be well for this death penalty to still be in place, for then we would see less disorder and carelessness in the church today.

But many in this topic have been questioning and doubting on these very things. They doubt that God will maintain His honor and justice in doing the very things He has said He would do. They opine that it would be a more "loving" God if He would never punish as He has promised to do and as His law requires.

Dear reader, I urge you not to follow these doubting ones into a state of complacency regarding the nature of God or of His plan of redemption. God has promised to end this sin experiment in righteousness, meting justice and judgment where it is due. He will keep His promises.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155648
09/01/13 04:05 AM
09/01/13 04:05 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Green - are you advocating we bring back the death penalty in Church? Would that be a good thing?

Your god green, is one to be feared. The God I know, is not one to be afraid of. God is EXACTLY like Jesus. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen God. What did Jesus do to His enemies? What did Jesus do to sinners? And finally, HOW will sinners in the end die? Is it execution by God? NO. We have the testimony of His Son, which demonstrates clearly, the wages of sin is death.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #155651
09/01/13 04:26 AM
09/01/13 04:26 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Those living in Flatville cannot conceive of three dimensions, regardless of the efforts of others to explain such.

"Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come!"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155652
09/01/13 04:54 AM
09/01/13 04:54 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Those living in Flatville cannot conceive of three dimensions, regardless of the efforts of others to explain such.

"Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come!"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Revelation 14:7 SayingG3004 withG1722 a loudG3173 voice,G5456 FearG5399 God,G2316 andG2532 giveG1325 gloryG1391 to him;G846 forG3754 theG3588 hourG5610 of hisG848 judgmentG2920 is come:G2064 andG2532 worshipG4352 him that madeG4160 heaven,G3772 andG2532 earth,G1093 andG2532 theG3588 sea,G2281 andG2532 the fountainsG4077 of waters.G5204

G5399
phobeō
fob-eh'-o
From G5401; to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: - be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.


Fear. Gr. phobeō, “to fear,” “to reverence.” Phobeō is used here not in the sense of being afraid of God, but in the sense of coming to Him with reverence and awe. It conveys the thought of absolute loyalty to God, of full surrender to His will


Deuteronomy 4:10 Specially the dayH3117 thatH834 you stoodH5975 beforeH6440 the LORDH3068 your GodH430 in Horeb,H2722 when the LORDH3068 saidH559 toH413 me, Gather me the people together,H6950 (H853) H5971 and I will make them hearH8085 (H853) my words,H1697 thatH834 they may learnH3925 to fearH3372 me allH3605 the daysH3117 thatH834 theyH1992 shall liveH2416 onH5921 the earth,H127 and that they may teachH3925 their children.H1121

SDABC: Fear me. To “fear” God is to regard Him with profound and reverent respect (Exo_19:10-13; Exo_20:20) and to have proper regard for His will (Deu_8:6; Pro_3:7; Ecc_12:13; Isa_11:2-3; Isa_33:6).

John 6:17-20 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them. 18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. 19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing near to the ship: and they were afraid. 20 But he said to them, It is I; be not afraid.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you: not as the world gives, give I to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Reverence God, but we do not need to be afraid of Him.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #155653
09/01/13 05:10 AM
09/01/13 05:10 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
I think we can largely agree on the meaning of "fear" in that verse. I think where we differ is the meaning of "judgment." It happens to be part of the three angels' messages, but it's a part of those messages which is greatly under attack by the Enemy, even here on this forum.

In continuation of those messages, the third angel's message begins as follows:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Revelation 14:9-10)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155655
09/01/13 05:19 AM
09/01/13 05:19 AM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
I think we can largely agree on the meaning of "fear" in that verse. I think where we differ is the meaning of "judgment." It happens to be part of the three angels' messages, but it's a part of those messages which is greatly under attack by the Enemy, even here on this forum.

We agree on the meaning of "fear"????? Then why did you paint as if we were to be afraid of God???? That is what you did!

Judgment - - you see judgment as punitive. But God judgment is restorative. The 3 angels message is Good News, but you paint it as bad news. Bad news is not gospel, good news.

I do agree with you on this point however, the 3 angel messages is under attack by the enemy.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #155740
09/03/13 05:42 PM
09/03/13 05:42 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
Bad is good, good is bad.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #155741
09/03/13 05:53 PM
09/03/13 05:53 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: kland
asygo can see Saul fell on his sword and died, but since the Bible does not specifically say falling on his sword killed him, it did not happen.

That is a lie. You are a liar, but not a very good one. If you're going to lie, at least try something that reasonable people might fall for.

Your problem is not a lack of B12. It's a lack of integrity.

#155544
Originally Posted By: asygo
So, like me, you can find no Scripture that specifically says that Saul "killed" himself. He fell on his sword, he died. From that, you INFER that one caused the other. You further add the conjecture that Saul INTENDED to kill himself. But, in all this, not one verse that SAYS Saul killed himself.

You did, however, find inspired text that says Saul killed himself. But you had to leave the Bible to do it, and take it as God-inspired truth.

Interestingly, the Bible specifically states that Saul was *killed* by someone other than Saul. Furthermore, the same author that told you Saul killed himself also says that God destroys sinners, as does the Bible.

God will not always be mocked; He will not long be trifled with. "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:9. {PP 167.2}

(Prediction: Now someone is going to accuse me of rejecting the SOP.)

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