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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: asygo]
#155750
09/03/13 11:41 PM
09/03/13 11:41 PM
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Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Re 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; Elle, if the second death = repentance, then Death and Hades will be repenting. I'm not buying that at this time. Remember, the Lord was very clear that He spoke in riddle which needs to be solved. What is baptism again? a death of the old man....right! (" Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?... For through the Law, I died to the Law, …I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live,… 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with) That old man has to burn the same way your old man burned through Jesus' baptism of fire. Did Jesus' fiery law kill you Asygo? Would you say that His fire is like fullers soap? Tell me what death did you die? Which death did Paul died every day? AV Re 21:8 " But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death". Above is a list of different types of old man that will burn in the lake of fire. Not going to be a quick dip. It will be an "eternal[ aionian, an age-abiding] damnation"( krisis, judgment). Many thousands of years(42,000 years max) will elapse for them to serve to pay off their debt. A little by little, their old man wll die and they will learn righteousness just as it did for you. If the old man is burned, then what's left? The new man in Christ, just as it left you intact. Re 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death.; Now notice this text above is before the individuals are thrown in the lake of fire which are thrown in Rev 20:15. Since the Lord has judge them to die the 2nd death which requires them to pay out their own debt according to what He has previous express in His Jubilee law and the judgments listed for specific sins, thus this makes the first death irrelevant. So it is cast in the lake of fire before the people are cast in for they are judge to die the second death. Isaiah 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.The judgments of the Lord shown in the law of Moses are restorative and not destructive by which will bring the " restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."(Act 3:32)
Blessings
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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: Elle]
#155751
09/04/13 12:11 AM
09/04/13 12:11 AM
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Elle,
Where are you getting all of your interpretations from?
Are your interpretations coming from your own personal and prayerful study, or are you obtaining them from an internet source?
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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: Daryl]
#155753
09/04/13 12:29 AM
09/04/13 12:29 AM
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Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Elle,
Where are you getting all of your interpretations from?
Are your interpretations coming from your own personal and prayerful study, or are you obtaining them from an internet source? The meaning of the second death, destruction, all man to be saved, the lake of fire being a baptism, no freewill, etc.... the Lord gave me all of this via personal studies. It was via looking up the Hebrew & Greek words and looking up all its occurrences in the Bible to derive the Lord's definition of words that I started to see things differently. I was sharing my studies about this on the forum in Restoration Ministry and Adventist Online. Then a year later, I came across Myron, an SDA, that from his own studies also came to the same understanding over 12 years ago. He came across the studies of Stephen Jones, who is a non-denominationalist who studies the law of Moses. When Myron shared what the studies from the Law of Moses that gave a very strong foundation to what I was seeing elsewhere in scripture. It was an Ephiphany(spelling correct?) moment for me. I then refuse to read Stephen's studies for nearly a year so I wouldn't be influenced by his interpretation. And I branched in studying the law on my own and on AO and over here. Yes, it is my personal studies, but now I do read Stephen Jones studies too, but will verify all texts and I do not just accept things without verifying and doing my own studying. Now Daryl, I have been answering all your questios. Now tell me which death Paul died when he died every day?
Blessings
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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: Daryl]
#155762
09/04/13 10:10 AM
09/04/13 10:10 AM
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NON-SDA
Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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Elle,
Where are you getting all of your interpretations from?
Are your interpretations coming from your own personal and prayerful study, or are you obtaining them from an internet source? Elle's line of reasoning is faulty. It goes like this. Paul says we who believe die daily, that we are crucified with Christ, that we are baptized into Christ's death. What does Paul's constant references to death mean? We don't literally die, do we? Rather, Paul must mean that we repent and are changed. THEREFORE, death = repentance; and further, the concept of death being symbolic of that which leads to renewal, the second death for the wicked must mean repentance and renewal for them as well. The law of the jubilee suggests that it must be so too: everyone eventually returning to the land of their God-given inheritance. That line of reasoning sounds very logical, except for one thing. Paul was not saying that death = repentance, BUT that repentance IS LIKE death, that our sorrow for doing wrong and sincere vow not to repeat the same offense IS LIKE burying the old way and living anew in a kind of resurrected spiritual state of true obedience. The difference in reasoning is subtle but very important. We know that the Bible often characterizes Satan as being THE Serpent, and Christ being THE Lamb. Yet it is neither that Satan = the Serpent, nor that Christ = the Lamb. Rather that the innocent lamb that you see on the sacrificial altar is LIKE Christ, and that the slithering, meandering, stealthy movement of the serpent that you see is LIKE Satan. Repentance is LIKE death; but death in no way, IS repentance. It takes a little while and some thought to grasp the difference between the two. I die daily for sure, but when I die, the undertakers will bury me and I will sleep until The Lord calls me when He returns. I am CRUCIFIED with Christ indeed, but when the wicked are CAST in the lake of fire, unlike me, they will NEVER be raised again. ..... ...
Last edited by James Peterson; 09/04/13 10:19 AM.
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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: James Peterson]
#155771
09/04/13 12:17 PM
09/04/13 12:17 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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Pretty clever, huh? It's only going to get worse in the last days and if we aren't on our toes, we won't be able to grasp the differences.
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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: James Peterson]
#155774
09/04/13 01:24 PM
09/04/13 01:24 PM
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Good post, as this is also how I understand it.  Elle,
Where are you getting all of your interpretations from?
Are your interpretations coming from your own personal and prayerful study, or are you obtaining them from an internet source? Elle's line of reasoning is faulty. It goes like this. Paul says we who believe die daily, that we are crucified with Christ, that we are baptized into Christ's death. What does Paul's constant references to death mean? We don't literally die, do we? Rather, Paul must mean that we repent and are changed. THEREFORE, death = repentance; and further, the concept of death being symbolic of that which leads to renewal, the second death for the wicked must mean repentance and renewal for them as well. The law of the jubilee suggests that it must be so too: everyone eventually returning to the land of their God-given inheritance. That line of reasoning sounds very logical, except for one thing. Paul was not saying that death = repentance, BUT that repentance IS LIKE death, that our sorrow for doing wrong and sincere vow not to repeat the same offense IS LIKE burying the old way and living anew in a kind of resurrected spiritual state of true obedience. The difference in reasoning is subtle but very important. We know that the Bible often characterizes Satan as being THE Serpent, and Christ being THE Lamb. Yet it is neither that Satan = the Serpent, nor that Christ = the Lamb. Rather that the innocent lamb that you see on the sacrificial altar is LIKE Christ, and that the slithering, meandering, stealthy movement of the serpent that you see is LIKE Satan. Repentance is LIKE death; but death in no way, IS repentance. It takes a little while and some thought to grasp the difference between the two. I die daily for sure, but when I die, the undertakers will bury me and I will sleep until The Lord calls me when He returns. I am CRUCIFIED with Christ indeed, but when the wicked are CAST in the lake of fire, unlike me, they will NEVER be raised again. ..... ...
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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: Daryl]
#155776
09/04/13 02:58 PM
09/04/13 02:58 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: Daryl]
#155792
09/05/13 07:52 AM
09/05/13 07:52 AM
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Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Good post, as this is also how I understand it. Elle,
Where are you getting all of your interpretations from?
Are your interpretations coming from your own personal and prayerful study, or are you obtaining them from an internet source? Elle's line of reasoning is faulty. It goes like this. Paul says we who believe die daily, that we are crucified with Christ, that we are baptized into Christ's death. What does Paul's constant references to death mean? We don't literally die, do we? Rather, Paul must mean that we repent and are changed. THEREFORE, death = repentance; and further, the concept of death being symbolic of that which leads to renewal, the second death for the wicked must mean repentance and renewal for them as well. The law of the jubilee suggests that it must be so too: everyone eventually returning to the land of their God-given inheritance. That line of reasoning sounds very logical, except for one thing. Paul was not saying that death = repentance, BUT that repentance IS LIKE death, that our sorrow for doing wrong and sincere vow not to repeat the same offense IS LIKE burying the old way and living anew in a kind of resurrected spiritual state of true obedience. The difference in reasoning is subtle but very important. We know that the Bible often characterizes Satan as being THE Serpent, and Christ being THE Lamb. Yet it is neither that Satan = the Serpent, nor that Christ = the Lamb. Rather that the innocent lamb that you see on the sacrificial altar is LIKE Christ, and that the slithering, meandering, stealthy movement of the serpent that you see is LIKE Satan. Repentance is LIKE death; but death in no way, IS repentance. It takes a little while and some thought to grasp the difference between the two. I die daily for sure, but when I die, the undertakers will bury me and I will sleep until The Lord calls me when He returns. I am CRUCIFIED with Christ indeed, but when the wicked are CAST in the lake of fire, unlike me, they will NEVER be raised again. ..... ... Your thoughts Asygo with your comment on which death Paul died daily?
Blessings
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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: Elle]
#155815
09/05/13 06:34 PM
09/05/13 06:34 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Your thoughts Asygo with your comment on which death Paul died daily? Not the 2nd death. It's more likely this: How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Romans 6:2) For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:7)This is the sense in which repentance = death. Looking at the law, the death it demands for sin never allowed the sinner to come back the next day to do it again. You say I read it too literally. I could say the same for you. Try this on for size: Whenever you read about repentance, it doesn't really mean repentance; what it means is that the person will die. When the law says slaves will be set free, it is merely symbolic of the fact that sinners will die.That argument rests on the same logic as yours, namely, take what the Bible says and claim it is really symbolic of what you wish it said.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support?
[Re: asygo]
#155823
09/05/13 11:10 PM
09/05/13 11:10 PM
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Seeing this is a forum mainly for Seventh-day Adventists, I prefer a much better source than the one Elle is using to back up her own personal studies and interpretations, and that is the writings of Ellen White, who I believe is God's messenger for these last days in which she is God's lesser light (her writings) leading us to the greater light (the Bible writers).
In other words, if Elle and her source/s go contrary to God's messenger for these last days, I will choose her writings over anyboody's personal studies and interpretations.
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