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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Johann]
#155681
09/01/13 03:52 PM
09/01/13 03:52 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Unfortunately there are too many "christians" who serve a tyrant god.
Let us keep them in our prayers. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!...
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#155686
09/01/13 08:15 PM
09/01/13 08:15 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#155698
09/02/13 08:55 AM
09/02/13 08:55 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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APL would like to conflate the distinction between moral laws and physical laws, creating a line of division between them which is unsupportable. So God can transgress moral law all he wants. Is that what you claim? Yes we have physical laws which govern the universe in which we live. Why is transgression of physical law for us created beings a violation of moral law? For one, violating physical law will KILL you. Is God bound by our physical laws? NO. But the moral law existed BEFORE our creation. It is and always has been unchangeable. And God is not bound by it? BTW - HOW is God's law written on every nerve, muscle and fiber? As in obedience to His natural laws the earth should produce its treasures, so in obedience to His moral law the hearts of the people were to reflect the attributes of His character. Even the heathen would recognize the superiority of those who served and worshiped the living God. {COL 289.2} Hm - by us not killing, we reflect the Divine character. But Green says God kills, so how is it we reflect the Divine when we do not kill? I guess we are not doing enough killing. Are we judged by the physical law of the moral law? The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government. It is unchangeable, unalterable, infinite, and eternal. In order for man to be saved, and for the honor of the law to be maintained, it was necessary for the Son of God to offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin. He who knew no sin became sin for us, He died for us on Calvary. His death shows the wonderful love of God for man, and the immutability of His law. . . . {AG 80.3} Again - is God bound by His moral law or not? Green says NO. Everyone else is bound by it, but not God! Is this truth or a lie? It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature that by beholding we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. If self is his loftiest ideal, he will never attain to anything more exalted. Rather, he will constantly sink lower and lower. The grace of God alone has power to exalt man. Left to himself, his course must inevitably be downward. {GC 555.1} By beholding God we become changed. If our god is on that will torture and kill his subjects, we will become like that god. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!...
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9} Christ bore the curse of the law, suffering its penalty, carrying to completion the plan whereby man was to be placed where he could keep God's law, and be accepted through the merits of the Redeemer; and by His sacrifice glory was shed upon the law. Then the glory of that which is not to be done away--God's law of ten commandments, His standard of righteousness--was plainly seen by all who saw to the end of that which was done away. {1SM 240.2} Is God righteous? By what standard to we know God's righteousness? You have conflated the terms "murder" and "kill." Your entire doctrine might be remedied if you only understood the distinction between these two words. Since you do not understand this, and since you turn a blind eye to this distinction, you will never be able to grasp how God can "kill" without breaking the moral law, which tells us not to "murder." In fact, God has told people to kill other people at times. How does this compute? It is because killing and murdering are two different things. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#155699
09/02/13 01:47 PM
09/02/13 01:47 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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You have conflated the terms "murder" and "kill." Your entire doctrine might be remedied if you only understood the distinction between these two words. Since you do not understand this, and since you turn a blind eye to this distinction, you will never be able to grasp how God can "kill" without breaking the moral law, which tells us not to "murder."
In fact, God has told people to kill other people at times. How does this compute? It is because killing and murdering are two different things. And you quite your soul by thinking that there is lawful killing and unlawful killing. Question - if someone attacked you in your home, would you turn the other cheek? Or would you feel perfectly justified in killing your attacker? As Seventh-day Adventists, great stress has been placed upon the truth that the last conflict will be over the law of God. This has not been overdone. Despite all the emphasis, there has not yet been conveyed the real significance of the place of the law in that final struggle. Generally, it is thought that the issue will simply be proving that the seventh day is the Sabbath, with the corresponding exposure of Sunday as being the day of the man of sin. But the issues will go vastly deeper than this. It is true that Sabbath versus Sunday will be the focal point of the issue, but the whole of the law will be contested, not just one point of it. The deepest spiritual implications and ramifications of the law will be explored, presented, and controverted as we are doing here now! Because the law is the very expression of the righteousness or character of God, the issue will involve the question of how God keeps that law. Does He kill, destroy, punish, annihilate, and execute? The time will come for the final settlement of the great questions of the law and the character of God to be made before the second advent. Christ came to magnify the law and make it honorable. He showed that it is based upon the broad foundation of love to God and love to man, and that obedience to its precepts comprises the whole duty of man. In His own life He gave an example of obedience to the law of God. In the Sermon on the Mount He showed how its requirements extend beyond the outward acts and take cognizance of the thoughts and intents of the heart. {AA 505.1} When is this speaking about? Christ life on this earth! HIs obedience was to the whole law. “all that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son” {8T 286} Individuals (not just green) actually inject another word into the Scriptures. They say that the law really means, “Thou shalt not lie, steal, or kill―unlawfully.” Or they express it in these words, “Thou shalt commit no murder,” a distinction in meaning being made between the words kill and murder. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary defines “murder” in this way: “To kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice or willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully.” In human minds there is a distinction between lawful and unlawful killing. The devil is bent on making is that the law must be broken in order for it to be maintained. The life and teachings of Christ deny this. So does the message of God in the Old Testament.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#155703
09/02/13 03:17 PM
09/02/13 03:17 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Do the JW help? At least in Norwegian they called Jesus Christ a "butcher" He was to butcher all who were not faithful JW on October 1, 1975 in the war of Armageddon to be fought that day.
A third generation JW bought himself a hatchet and was going to kill his wife and children the night before so they would be resurrected later without watching that event. Fortunately his wife prevented it. Later he wrote the book, God lives in Brooklyn by Roar Henriksen.
You will find his story in the magazine Hjemmet, August 26, 2013.
Last edited by Johann; 09/02/13 03:24 PM.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#155710
09/03/13 03:59 AM
09/03/13 03:59 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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You have conflated the terms "murder" and "kill." Your entire doctrine might be remedied if you only understood the distinction between these two words. Since you do not understand this, and since you turn a blind eye to this distinction, you will never be able to grasp how God can "kill" without breaking the moral law, which tells us not to "murder."
In fact, God has told people to kill other people at times. How does this compute? It is because killing and murdering are two different things. And you quite your soul by thinking that there is lawful killing and unlawful killing. Question - if someone attacked you in your home, would you turn the other cheek? Or would you feel perfectly justified in killing your attacker? As Seventh-day Adventists, great stress has been placed upon the truth that the last conflict will be over the law of God. This has not been overdone. Despite all the emphasis, there has not yet been conveyed the real significance of the place of the law in that final struggle. Generally, it is thought that the issue will simply be proving that the seventh day is the Sabbath, with the corresponding exposure of Sunday as being the day of the man of sin. But the issues will go vastly deeper than this. It is true that Sabbath versus Sunday will be the focal point of the issue, but the whole of the law will be contested, not just one point of it. The deepest spiritual implications and ramifications of the law will be explored, presented, and controverted as we are doing here now! Because the law is the very expression of the righteousness or character of God, the issue will involve the question of how God keeps that law. Does He kill, destroy, punish, annihilate, and execute? The time will come for the final settlement of the great questions of the law and the character of God to be made before the second advent. Christ came to magnify the law and make it honorable. He showed that it is based upon the broad foundation of love to God and love to man, and that obedience to its precepts comprises the whole duty of man. In His own life He gave an example of obedience to the law of God. In the Sermon on the Mount He showed how its requirements extend beyond the outward acts and take cognizance of the thoughts and intents of the heart. {AA 505.1} When is this speaking about? Christ life on this earth! HIs obedience was to the whole law. “all that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son” {8T 286} Individuals (not just green) actually inject another word into the Scriptures. They say that the law really means, “Thou shalt not lie, steal, or kill―unlawfully.” Or they express it in these words, “Thou shalt commit no murder,” a distinction in meaning being made between the words kill and murder. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary defines “murder” in this way: “To kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice or willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully.” In human minds there is a distinction between lawful and unlawful killing. The devil is bent on making is that the law must be broken in order for it to be maintained. The life and teachings of Christ deny this. So does the message of God in the Old Testament. I do not know what I would do if confronted with a murderer in my own house. But I can assure you that if I were to kill such a one, I would afterward feel both very miserable for having had to do such a thing, and justified in having done so, for it is lawful in the sight of God. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. (Luke 12:39) How would the "goodman of the house" have stopped the thief? But Jesus knew the law that He had given the Israelites, through Moses, of His own voice just after having given the Ten Commandments, and the teeth that was in it against a thief in just such a situation. If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. (Exodus 22:2) In other words, it was not against the law to kill the thief that broke in at night. No punishment (blood) would be required. This, then, is what Jesus, during His life on earth, referred back to. His own words. From the "Old" Testament. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#155713
09/03/13 04:16 AM
09/03/13 04:16 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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God let the people have laws of divorce. Where they good laws? Is that what God wanted? Was this the ideal? God have the people a king. Was this a good thing? Was this the ideal? Jesus interpreted the laws. God hates divorce. God made the best of the situation. Mark 10:5 And Jesus answered and said to them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. The people did not want to have God as their leader. They wanted to fight their way in the Canaan. Is this what God wanted them to do? No. What did Jesus say to do when you were struck in the face? To hit back, and kill your attacker? No. Turn the other cheek. What did Jesus do when the Jews set out to kill Him? Did He defend Himself? No. Is there no lesson you find in the life of Christ? I have been reading from the following book this week. The author makes the following profound statement: The use of Carnal Weapons Prohibited
The inheritance which the Lord has promised to His people, the seed of Abraham, is not to be obtained by fighting, except with spiritual weapons--the armour of Christ--against the hosts of Satan. They who seek the country which God has promised, declare that they are strangers and pilgrims on this earth. They cannot use the sword, even in self-defense, much less for conquest. The Lord is their defender. He says: "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green." [Jer_17:5-8] {1900 EJW, EVCO 127.2} Killing is unlawful.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#155715
09/03/13 04:20 AM
09/03/13 04:20 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Why would God command that which was against His law? Why would He make a law that contradicted another of His laws? I guess the above verse must not be in your Bible. The trouble is, it is in mine. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#155716
09/03/13 04:23 AM
09/03/13 04:23 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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If God did wrong in making a command that contradicted His REAL command (whichever one was more "real," I don't know), because of "the hardness of our hearts," then it seems we have pulled God into our own mess, and He has sinned along with us.
Of course, that cannot be!
Therefore, APL's theology is the real "wrong" here.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#155717
09/03/13 04:56 AM
09/03/13 04:56 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Why would God command that which was against His law? Why would He make a law that contradicted another of His laws? I guess the above verse must not be in your Bible. The trouble is, it is in mine. Blessings, Green Cochoa. I guess the church is out of harmony then. We should be killing sinners more often, right?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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