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Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Green Cochoa] #155575
08/29/13 12:04 PM
08/29/13 12:04 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Johann showed where it was intentionally changed in violation of the agreed upon rules and to the wrong. How do see that as "careful and good intent"?

Johann never did show where it was changed. He only said that it had been changed. Furthermore, he claimed the KJV had been changed in fourteen places, implying a difference in word choice. It so happens that the NIV has more entire verses missing than that.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.



Again you avoid this question as if it is a plague. You refuse to deal with it. Why? Bible Societies accept this as a fact, even it we do not have all of the minute details of it.

By the same token I'd say that you are a heretic fake because I have no evidence of your real name nor your address, something you refuse to divulge. Why should I accept you for anything else?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Gregory] #155578
08/29/13 12:47 PM
08/29/13 12:47 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Gregory
Quote:
The Jews would not change a word or delete or take out any of them because they felt every word was from God, so the text was carefully guarded. Not what can be said with the Minority text and the Alexandrian codices.


When people make statements like the above, they are often thinking of the work of the Masoretes. So, let us talk about them for a minute.

The Masoretes were a sect of Jewish scholars who lived in Tiberias, off the coast of the Seal of Galilee. They generally did thier work between 500 A.D. and 1000 A.D. Their work was to standardize the ancient MSS that existed of the O.T.

NOTE: As they did their work several hundred years after the time of Christ, they were working with MSS that were hundreds of years older. They attempted to standardize the MSS due to the fact that they differed.

Their work has become known as the Masoretic Text which forms the basis for much of what we know today as the O.T.

It should be pointed out that their work was done over several hundred years and by many people. So, there exists some differences in the individual work done by the various members of this sect. However, much of what we know today to be the Masoretic Text is due to the work of one family the Ben Asher family.

To be continued.


So true. I have not heard of a single manuscript anywhere today in the original Hebrew, except in tiny fragments. As you mentioned elsewhere, the oldest and only "Hebrew" manuscripts available have been changed from the original by the Masoretes, adding the vowel points which were nowhere in use until 500 years after Christ, making it impossible to conclude that Jesus was referring to those when he said that no iota would be changed.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Gregory] #155581
08/29/13 01:07 PM
08/29/13 01:07 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gregory
Quote:

The Jews would not change a word or delete or take out any of them because they felt every word was from God, so the text was carefully guarded. Not what can be said with the Minority text and the Alexandrian codices.


Your statement is a partial truth. It is true for some copies of the ancient MSS. But there is evidence that this was not true for every copy made by a Jew.

E.G. There is evidence that the Aramaic Taragums were produced by Jews. Yet, I doubt that you would suggest that your statement applies to them.

I could give you other examples, if I were to chose to do so. But, I will let it go with one at this point in time.




Sure there are always exceptions, but that was what was expected of them, the standard, the norm, and why we can compare so many thousand of manuscripts and they agree.

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Johann] #155582
08/29/13 01:12 PM
08/29/13 01:12 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann


So true. I have not heard of a single manuscript anywhere today in the original Hebrew, except in tiny fragments. As you mentioned elsewhere, the oldest and only "Hebrew" manuscripts available have been changed from the original by the Masoretes, adding the vowel points which were nowhere in use until 500 years after Christ, making it impossible to conclude that Jesus was referring to those when he said that no iota would be changed.
Shakespeare comes to mind.....

Queen:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230

Last edited by Rick H; 08/29/13 01:14 PM.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Rick H] #155585
08/29/13 04:25 PM
08/29/13 04:25 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: Johann


So true. I have not heard of a single manuscript anywhere today in the original Hebrew, except in tiny fragments. As you mentioned elsewhere, the oldest and only "Hebrew" manuscripts available have been changed from the original by the Masoretes, adding the vowel points which were nowhere in use until 500 years after Christ, making it impossible to conclude that Jesus was referring to those when he said that no iota would be changed.
Shakespeare comes to mind.....

Queen:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230


How does that compare?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Rick H] #155588
08/29/13 06:12 PM
08/29/13 06:12 PM
G
Gregory  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
Quote:
Sure there are always exceptions, but that was what was expected of them, the standard, the norm, and why we can compare so many thousand of manuscripts and they agree.


Your statement is an oversimplificaiton which is a partial truth.

Just for your information:

We have over 6,000 manuscripts of the New Testament.

Most of what we have of the O.T. are fragments. Two (2) of the caves in which the Dead Sea Scrolls were found contained 100,000+ fragraments and 1,000 manuscripts of which 300 were Biblical manuscripts.

The Cairo Geniza finds had 200,000 fragments.

The differences between the Masoretic Text and the Samaritan Pentateuch came to 6,000 differences, most of which can not be described as doctrinal issues.

There is much more that could be said here. God has preserved in the MSS and in the Bibles of today what God wanted preserved. However, the differences, even though often minor are many.

But, the differences exist. They can not truthfully be described as you have done in the quotation above.

Last edited by Gregory; 08/29/13 09:09 PM.

Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Rick H] #155592
08/29/13 08:43 PM
08/29/13 08:43 PM
Johann  Offline
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Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: Johann


So true. I have not heard of a single manuscript anywhere today in the original Hebrew, except in tiny fragments. As you mentioned elsewhere, the oldest and only "Hebrew" manuscripts available have been changed from the original by the Masoretes, adding the vowel points which were nowhere in use until 500 years after Christ, making it impossible to conclude that Jesus was referring to those when he said that no iota would be changed.
Shakespeare comes to mind.....

Queen:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230


The information I gave above was what we were taught in school. . . before the Dead Sea Scrolls. Consider that the Dead Sea Scrolls had no influence on the Textus Receptus, so they have hardly had any influence on the KJV!

The vowel points did not exist in the days of Jesus nor the Apostles.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Johann] #155608
08/30/13 10:16 PM
08/30/13 10:16 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,245
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: Johann


So true. I have not heard of a single manuscript anywhere today in the original Hebrew, except in tiny fragments. As you mentioned elsewhere, the oldest and only "Hebrew" manuscripts available have been changed from the original by the Masoretes, adding the vowel points which were nowhere in use until 500 years after Christ, making it impossible to conclude that Jesus was referring to those when he said that no iota would be changed.
Shakespeare comes to mind.....

Queen:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230


The information I gave above was what we were taught in school. . . before the Dead Sea Scrolls. Consider that the Dead Sea Scrolls had no influence on the Textus Receptus, so they have hardly had any influence on the KJV!

The vowel points did not exist in the days of Jesus nor the Apostles.
The holy text was carefully kept manuscript after manuscript, but the Alexandrian codices were purposely corrupted, these corrupted text were the cause of Arianism, they were rejected by the Reformation, they were a Minority Text for a reason, they were seen for what they were, a tool of confusion and diversion which we see the results of today.

Last edited by Rick H; 08/30/13 10:16 PM.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Gregory] #155613
08/30/13 11:36 PM
08/30/13 11:36 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,245
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Gregory
Quote:
Sure there are always exceptions, but that was what was expected of them, the standard, the norm, and why we can compare so many thousand of manuscripts and they agree.


Your statement is an oversimplificaiton which is a partial truth.

Just for your information:

We have over 6,000 manuscripts of the New Testament.

Most of what we have of the O.T. are fragments. Two (2) of the caves in which the Dead Sea Scrolls were found contained 100,000+ fragraments and 1,000 manuscripts of which 300 were Biblical manuscripts.

The Cairo Geniza finds had 200,000 fragments.

The differences between the Masoretic Text and the Samaritan Pentateuch came to 6,000 differences, most of which can not be described as doctrinal issues.

There is much more that could be said here. God has preserved in the MSS and in the Bibles of today what God wanted preserved. However, the differences, even though often minor are many.

But, the differences exist. They can not truthfully be described as you have done in the quotation above.
We are talking about major differences not minor, where the deity of Christ is taken out, diminished or purposely subverted.

Take a look at this comparison of a few verses on key doctrines in the King James Version versus the RSV and NIV....


1 John 5:7
Removal of the Trinity
KJV---For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:and these three are one.
RSV---For there are three that testify the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost
NIV---( missing )


Romans 1:3
Systematic removal of the divinity of Jesus Christ
KJV---Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
RSV--- concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
NIV---regarding his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,


Acts 22:16
Systematic removal of the divinity of Jesus Christ
KJV---wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord
RSV---and wash away thy sins, calling on his name.
NIV---wash your sins away, calling on his name.

The problem is that some of these new versions are not just a 'different translation', they basically have done editing to actually change doctrines or take out whatever they disagree with or doesnt fit with a doctrine they hold or someones traditions. Some have taken out whole chapters out or like the Mormons have done away and written their own... and eventually you get to a point which the proffessor brings up where 'You cannot prove the Trinity in the NIV...'

So its not just a 'different translation'....

In the new RSV/ NIV the following is missing so its message or meaning it gave has just been wiped out:

Matt 17:21
Matt 18:11
Matt 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Acts 8:37
Acts 15:34
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24

Also, look at Rev 1:11, which I have always memorized as: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." That phrase is also missing from the NRSV.

The Textus Receptus or Majority Text (the vast majority of copies from original, and what the King James is based on) has been attacked with changes, amendments, deletions, and to diminish Gods truth but yet it still stands. Many of the new versions are based on a few corrupted manuscripts and deletions which form the basis of the Minority Text.

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Rick H] #155614
08/30/13 11:40 PM
08/30/13 11:40 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,245
Florida, USA
I don't know if you saw what was posted on the Minority Text, so lets go over it again. The Minority Text is also known as the Alexandrian Texts because they were from the few manuscripts produced in Alexandria in Egypt.

"..The Minority Texts were rejected by the early Christians and also by all the Protestant Reformers of the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries. The Reformers, who were well aware of the existence of the Minority Texts, considered them unfit for translation purposes.

It is believed that the Minority Texts were butchered by Egyptian gnosticism with many changes, which are mostly deletions. The gnostics were a group that did not believe:
In the virgin birth, that Jesus was the Son of God, that Jesus was resurrected to heaven, that Jesus was the Creator, or that Jesus made atonement for our sins. There are many alterations in the Minority Texts, often a single manuscript being amended by several different scribes over a period of many years.

The Minority Texts omit approximately 200 versus from the Scriptures. This is equivalent to omitting First and Second Peter. The Minority Texts contradict themselves in hundreds of places...."

http://endtimeoutreach.com/whichbible.html
Here is some more background on the corruption of the Minority Text from another site....

"...almost all modern English bibles translated since 1898 are based on the Minority Text (this includes the New American Standard Bible, the New International Version, the Living Bible, the New Revised Standard Version, the New World Translation, the New Century Version, the Good News Bible, etc.). These bible versions are only supported by about five of the over 5,000 manuscripts in existence, or about .1% of all manuscripts, which is why it's also known as the "Minority text.".

The two most prominent manuscripts of the Minority Texts are the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus....These Minority Texts frequently disagreed with each other as well as with the Majority Text, and also contained many obvious and flagrant mistakes. Up until the late 1800s, the Minority Texts were utterly rejected by Christians.

The fact that these two manuscripts may have been older does not prove they are better. More likely it indicates that they were set aside because of their numerous errors....

The Vaticanus, which is the sole property of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Sinaiticus, are both known to be overwhelmed with errors. Words and whole phrases are repeated twice in succession or completely omitted, while the entire manuscript has had the text mutilated by some person or persons who ran over every letter with a pen making exact identification of many of the characters impossible...."

"...One of the manuscripts that make up the Minority Text is the Vaticanus. The Vaticanus was found in 1481 in the Vatican library. The other manuscript is the Sinaiticus. The Sinaiticus was found in 1844 in a trash pile at Saint Catherine's monastery, and rescued from a long (and well-deserved) obscurity. It has a great number of omissions and has many words and phrases marked out and re-written. Both of these manuscripts are from Roman Catholic origin...."


http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nt_manuscripts.html


and it just goes on and on....

"...The Vaticanus Manuscript (B)
The Vaticanus manuscript was found in the Vatican library in 1481. It was rejected by the King James Translators because it was very corrupt and unreliable. The following portions of Scripture are missing from the Vaticanus: Genesis 1:1-46; 28; Psalms 106-138; Matthew 16:2-3; Mark 16:9-20; The Pastoral Epistles (1 & 2 Timothy and Titus) and everything after Hebrews 9:14. These were intentional omissions because the manuscript was found in excellent condition with no pieces missing. In the Gospels it leaves out 237 words, 452 clauses, and 748 whole sentences. These omissions were intentional since there was room left on pages to write these in. The Vaticanus manuscript was written on expensive Vellum and was in good condition when found which means that the missing areas were not due to missing sections but intentional omission.

The Sinaiticus Manuscript (a) Aleph
The major characteristic of this manuscript is that it is a literary mess. There are mistakes, erasures, sentences written on top of other sentences plus many words are omitted. It contains nearly all the New Testament, the Apocryphal Books plus two other false books, “The Shepherd of Hermes...."

So how do you find out if your Bible version is based on the corrupted Alexandrian manuscripts or Minority Text, simple.
Look for Acts 8:37, if your version is missing it, then it is from these Alexandrian manuscripts who tried to wipe out the divinity of Christ in their corrupted text.


Last edited by Rick H; 08/30/13 11:41 PM.
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