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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: asygo]
#155616
08/31/13 01:21 AM
08/31/13 01:21 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Originally, you said Saul fell on his sword. Now that you found another verse, you are clinging to that one and ignoring the first one you found. You need a specific verse which says Saul killed himself. Well, can you find a specific verse saying what weapon God used to kill Saul? If no murder weapon can be identified, no crime was committed. Maybe you want to repent of your specificity requirement or some future posts may be rather interesting. Why would God commit a crime if He killed? That is warped thinking. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord! Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#155649
09/01/13 04:08 AM
09/01/13 04:08 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Why would God commit a crime if He killed? That is warped thinking. Ah, God's law? "You shall not kill", Exodus 20:13. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3} And is repeated by people today!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#155650
09/01/13 04:24 AM
09/01/13 04:24 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us? Wow. That is a most amazingly narrow-minded concept. God's Word also says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. I suppose, now, that you believe the Sabbath was made for God? Is God obligated to keep it? Is God wrong for doing as He has promised? He has promised to destroy sin and sinners. I believe your mind may be past seeing the truth of the following statement, but for the benefit of others, here is a strong testimony regarding what lies ahead. “Said the angel: ‘Poor, foolish man knows not what he is doing. He has lifted his puny arm against Omnipotence; he has defied God's law.’ The law of God is a golden link to unite finite man to the infinite God. It links earth to Heaven, and man to God. The transgressor is about to meet the great Lawgiver over his broken law. The wrath of God has long slumbered, but soon, with terrible justice and crushing weight, will his wrath fall upon the transgressor. And that arm that has been stretched forth in rebellion against God's law and would sever the golden link binding earth to Heaven and man to God, will wither while the transgressor shall stand upon his feet. That tongue that has boastingly and proudly spoken against God's law, and made the fourth commandment of none effect, will consume in his mouth while he stands upon his feet. Terrible will be the fate of those who transgress God's law, and lead others in the same Heaven-daring path of rebellion. {LS88 340.3}
“I was then pointed to the flattering things taught by some of these transgressors of God's law. I was shown also a bright light, given by God to guide all who would walk in the way of salvation, and also to serve as a warning to the sinner to flee from the wrath of God, and yield a willing obedience to his claims. While this light should continue, there would be hope; but there would be a time when it would cease,—when he that is holy will remain holy forever, and when he that is filthy will remain filthy forever. When Jesus stands up, when his work is finished in the most holy, then not another ray of light will be imparted to the sinner. {LS88 341.1}
“But Satan flatters some, through his chosen servants, as he flattered Eve in Eden, ‘Thou shalt not surely die;’ and tells them there will be a season for repentance, a time of probation when the filthy can be made pure. The co-workers with Satan and his angels carry the light into the future age, teaching probation after the advent of Christ, which deludes the sinner, and leads the cold-hearted professor to carnal security. They become careless and indifferent, and walk stumblingly over the hours of their probation. The light is made to reach far ahead, where all is total darkness. Michael stands up. Instead of mercy, the deluded sinner feels wrath unmixed with mercy, having awakened too late to the fatal deception. This plan was studied by Satan, and is carried out by ministers who turn the truth of God into a lie.” {LS88 341.2} Just as the Bible has spoken, God will not keep His anger forever. There will be a time of justice. We are told it is yet future. Yet certain ones like to point to past periods of earth's history and erroneously hold them up as examples of every possible action of God toward sinners. Do they really think that they can control God's actions, or limit them? Can they put God in a box of their own making? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#155654
09/01/13 05:15 AM
09/01/13 05:15 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us? Wow. That is a most amazingly narrow-minded concept. Wow - that is a most profound statement I think you have ever made green. You are saying God is a sinner! Most profound! The Lord has taken infinite pains to teach men His will. He has given them His law, which is to govern the world. It demands perfect obedience from rich and poor, high and low. Its divine requirements are that we love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. Its principles are binding upon the angels and upon all human intelligences. Without the law there could be no transgression; for "sin is the transgression of the law." "By the law is the knowledge of sin." The standard of righteousness, it is exceeding broad, prohibiting every evil thing. {RH, April 23, 1901 par. 1} In setting aside the law of God, men know not what they are doing. God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom. He who refuses to accept these principles is placing himself outside the channel where God's blessings flow. {COL 305.3} Mat_11:28-30 Come to me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. But if you don't, God will kill you! All are accountable for their actions while in this world upon probation. All have power to control their actions, if they will. If they are weak in virtue and purity of thoughts, and acts, they can obtain help from the Friend of the helpless. Jesus is acquainted with all the weaknesses of human nature, and if entreated, will give strength to overcome the most powerful temptations. All can obtain this strength if they seek for it in humility. Jesus gives all a blessed invitation who are burdened, and laden with sin, to come to him, the sinner's friend. “Come unto me, all ye that labor, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” {ApM 31.2} But green would have us think, that if we don't come to God to HEAL us of our sin, He will then execute you. Sin pays its wage. Jesus has demonstrated the results of sin. Look to Jesus! The enemy is working continually to supplant Jesus Christ in the human heart, and to place his attributes in the human character, in the place of the attributes of God. He brings his strong delusions to bear upon the human mind, that he may have a controlling power. He seeks to obliterate the truth and abolish the true pattern of goodness and righteousness, in order that the professed Christian world may be swept to perdition through separation from God. He is working in order that selfishness may become world-wide, and thus make of no effect the mission and work of Christ. {RH, April 14, 1896 par. 1} Hebrews 3:8-10 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#155659
09/01/13 05:49 AM
09/01/13 05:49 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us? Wow. That is a most amazingly narrow-minded concept. Wow - that is a most profound statement I think you have ever made green. You are saying God is a sinner! Most profound! Again, you show your inability to comprehend the simplest of matters. I am bound by a law of gravity, as are you. Is God? Is God, then, a sinner? I am bound to a physical-flesh body. Is God? Is it a sin to be "Spirit," instead of "flesh?" There are indeed many laws which God has given us that are for us, not for Him. He does no wrong if He does not abide by them--except in APL's eyes. Let's look carefully at that quote from Mrs. White you brought out. The Lord has taken infinite pains to teach men His will. He has given them His law, which is to govern the world. It demands perfect obedience from rich and poor, high and low. Its divine requirements are that we love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. Its principles are binding upon the angels and upon all human intelligences. Without the law there could be no transgression; for "sin is the transgression of the law." "By the law is the knowledge of sin." The standard of righteousness, it is exceeding broad, prohibiting every evil thing. {RH, April 23, 1901 par. 1} Significantly missing in that statement is any reference to God being part of His own dominion. Does His law govern Himself? Or is it a representation of His character? Why, for example, is God able to create worlds from nothing, including creating our DNA, but it is a sin for us to meddle with that DNA? If God changes the DNA He has made, is He sinning? Yet if we do so, we are indeed sinning. You see, the mortal mind cannot grasp the greatness of God, nor should it attempt to place God on the same plain as itself. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#155660
09/01/13 06:21 AM
09/01/13 06:21 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Exo_20:13 You shall not kill. To which green says Do you think that God is bound by every law He has given us? Green thinks God is not bound by His own law. That is an amazing statement!!! Amazing! You should read Psalms 19, 119. The whole chapters!!! Psa_19:7-10 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, yes, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Psa_119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your law is the truth. [/quote=green] Significantly missing in that statement is any reference to God being part of His own dominion. Does His law govern Himself? Or is it a representation of His character?[/quote] God's law is a transcript of His Character. What does this mean? It means His character is conformity to the law. Why, for example, is God able to create worlds from nothing, including creating our DNA, but it is a sin for us to meddle with that DNA? If God changes the DNA He has made, is He sinning? Yet if we do so, we are indeed sinning. Who is the creator? Are you the creator? If the creator restores a person back into the image of God, is that sin? You assume that our DNA is exactly as God has created it. Do you believe it is? Will you answer this question? God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng. {COL 315.1} The law is an infinite standard, a transcript of His own character. Christ's life on this earth was a perfect expression of God's law. Christ, who was God! It is by Christ's life on this earth, we learn all we can of the Character of God.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#155661
09/01/13 06:25 AM
09/01/13 06:25 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Does God keep His own law? YES.
The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required. {PP 52.3}
Like the angels, the dwellers in Eden had been placed upon probation; their happy estate could be retained only on condition of fidelity to the Creator's law. They could obey and live, or disobey and perish. God had made them the recipients of rich blessings; but should they disregard His will, He who spared not the angels that sinned, could not spare them; transgression would forfeit His gifts and bring upon them misery and ruin. {PP 53.1}
Is God bound by physical laws? Green would like to say I will bind God to the law of gravitation. God is bound by His moral law, not the physical laws.
Last edited by APL; 09/01/13 06:35 AM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#155666
09/01/13 07:38 AM
09/01/13 07:38 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Does God keep His own law? YES.
The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required. {PP 52.3}
Like the angels, the dwellers in Eden had been placed upon probation; their happy estate could be retained only on condition of fidelity to the Creator's law. They could obey and live, or disobey and perish. God had made them the recipients of rich blessings; but should they disregard His will, He who spared not the angels that sinned, could not spare them; transgression would forfeit His gifts and bring upon them misery and ruin. {PP 53.1}
Is God bound by physical laws? Green would like to say I will bind God to the law of gravitation. God is bound by His moral law, not the physical laws. APL would like to conflate the distinction between moral laws and physical laws, creating a line of division between them which is unsupportable. Transgression of physical law is transgression of the moral law; for God is as truly the author of physical laws as He is the author of the moral law. His law is written with His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every faculty, which has been entrusted to man. And every misuse of any part of our organism is a violation of that law. {COL 347.1} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#155673
09/01/13 02:48 PM
09/01/13 02:48 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL would like to conflate the distinction between moral laws and physical laws, creating a line of division between them which is unsupportable. So God can transgress moral law all he wants. Is that what you claim? Yes we have physical laws which govern the universe in which we live. Why is transgression of physical law for us created beings a violation of moral law? For one, violating physical law will KILL you. Is God bound by our physical laws? NO. But the moral law existed BEFORE our creation. It is and always has been unchangeable. And God is not bound by it? BTW - HOW is God's law written on every nerve, muscle and fiber? As in obedience to His natural laws the earth should produce its treasures, so in obedience to His moral law the hearts of the people were to reflect the attributes of His character. Even the heathen would recognize the superiority of those who served and worshiped the living God. {COL 289.2} Hm - by us not killing, we reflect the Divine character. But Green says God kills, so how is it we reflect the Divine when we do not kill? I guess we are not doing enough killing. Are we judged by the physical law of the moral law? The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government. It is unchangeable, unalterable, infinite, and eternal. In order for man to be saved, and for the honor of the law to be maintained, it was necessary for the Son of God to offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin. He who knew no sin became sin for us, He died for us on Calvary. His death shows the wonderful love of God for man, and the immutability of His law. . . . {AG 80.3} Again - is God bound by His moral law or not? Green says NO. Everyone else is bound by it, but not God! Is this truth or a lie? It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature that by beholding we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. If self is his loftiest ideal, he will never attain to anything more exalted. Rather, he will constantly sink lower and lower. The grace of God alone has power to exalt man. Left to himself, his course must inevitably be downward. {GC 555.1} By beholding God we become changed. If our god is on that will torture and kill his subjects, we will become like that god. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!...
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9} Christ bore the curse of the law, suffering its penalty, carrying to completion the plan whereby man was to be placed where he could keep God's law, and be accepted through the merits of the Redeemer; and by His sacrifice glory was shed upon the law. Then the glory of that which is not to be done away--God's law of ten commandments, His standard of righteousness--was plainly seen by all who saw to the end of that which was done away. {1SM 240.2} Is God righteous? By what standard to we know God's righteousness?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#155679
09/01/13 03:47 PM
09/01/13 03:47 PM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Unfortunately there are too many "christians" who serve a tyrant god.
Let us keep them in our prayers.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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