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Does it make any difference?
#15562
08/30/05 02:35 AM
08/30/05 02:35 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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This is from another thread: quote:
R:I just can’t see how God’s removing His protecting hand would be any better than God directly removing life. In which way is opening the floodgates of a dam worse than removing the reinforcement system of the dam, causing it to break?
Tom: This is a great question, worthy of a topic I think. I believe this makes a huge difference, and is a vital point to understand.
I'd like to open this up to a general discussion. Does it make any difference whether you view destruction happening because God has removed His protective/sustaining hand or God actively performing the destructive act?
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Re: Does it make any difference?
#15563
08/30/05 01:58 PM
08/30/05 01:58 PM
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You said you see a huge difference between the two. Could you explain this in relation to the flood or any other biblical incident you wish?
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Re: Does it make any difference?
#15564
08/30/05 03:00 PM
08/30/05 03:00 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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According to inspiration, force is not a principle of God's government, and God does not destroy. Rather Satan is the destroyer, and force is the principle of his government. There are many statements which make this point, of which I will quote a few: quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Christ's Object Lessons, 84.
quote:
Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest." Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.
quote:
This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.
quote:
When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:55, 56.
quote:
Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." DA 759.
quote:
The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." ibid., 22.
quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.
quote:
God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.
These statements make clear that God does not destroy and that force is not a principle of His government. However there are many statements in inspiration which appear to contradict these statements. It appears that God does you force, and that He does destroy. How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction?
I believe the last quote provides the answer. It says "Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God." We know it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, and the quote explains why: "He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy.'"
So what we see here is that God is actually at work constantly to thwart the efforts of Satan. Now if God removes His protective hand, allowing those who have refused His protection to suffer the fate of their choice, which is that they come under the destructive power of the god they have chosen, it should be clear that this fundamentally different than God Himself destroying.
In the former case, none of the statements cited above are contradicted. God is not using force to get His way, but is rather protecting against the one who does use force. Similarly, God is not destroying, but those who have rejected Him come under the destructive power of the destroyer.
God is the restorer. Satan is the destroyer. He allows us to choose to whom we will give our allegiance.
The same principles apply to the natural realm. The laws of nature are not self-acting. They require the sustaining hand of God to function. Also, since sin, the laws of nature have been impact, to the point where there are faults in the earth's crust, resulting in volcanos, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. Other examples of how nature has been impacted include black holes, stars dying, asteroids and comets going off course.
There are toxic animals and plants. Diseases and viruses have entered into the natural realm. All of these things, and many more, are the result of sin.
If God were not constantly at work, we would become victims to these things. He is constantly protecting and sustaining us by keeping the earth on its course, by protecting us from disease, by keeping our hearts beating, and many other things.
quote:
It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain.... The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. {MH 416,417}
So the general principles are:
1.Sin is a destructive force which requires positive action on God's part for us to be protected.
2.God must sustain us, our planet, the laws of nature, in order for things to function correctly.
So if God withdraws His protective or sustaining hand, then bad things happen. As to why it is different for ruin to occur as a result of God withdrawing His sustaining and protecting hand vs. His actually causing the ruin, in the one case, none of the principles of His government are violated, but in the other they are.
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Re: Does it make any difference?
#15565
08/30/05 11:31 PM
08/30/05 11:31 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Why would God's destroying what is bad be a violation of the principles of His government?
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Re: Does it make any difference?
#15566
08/31/05 04:03 AM
08/31/05 04:03 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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quote:
Why would God's destroying what is bad be a violation of the principles of His government?
Because this would suppose that God destroys, and that destruction is an instrisic part of God's government.
Before sin arose, did God destroy anything? To suppose that it became necessary for God to destroy sin in order to defeat it, is to give sin the power to cause God to change the principles of His governement.
That is, before sin, God did not need to destroy anything. Destruction was not a part of God's character, nor a principle of God's government. After sin entered, according to this hypothesis, it became necessary for God to introduce a new element to His government, which is destruction.
Another problem with this idea is it presuposes that sin is not self-destructive. It assumes that it is necessary for God to take action to destroy sin, rather than recognizing that it is necessary for God to take action in order for sin not to result in self-destruction. When God finally does remove His protection, we will see the true power of sin. When Christ stops His work as mediator, the forces of hell will break loose, and we will see the result.
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Re: Does it make any difference?
#15567
08/31/05 10:46 AM
08/31/05 10:46 AM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
That is, before sin, God did not need to destroy anything. Destruction was not a part of God's character, nor a principle of God's government. After sin entered, according to this hypothesis, it became necessary for God to introduce a new element to His government, which is destruction.
How do you know if a principle is or is not part of someone before the need arises for that principle to be revealed? On that basis, “Thou shalt not kill”, “Thou shalt not steal”, “Thou shalt not commit adultery”, and in fact all the ten commandments do not constitute principles of God’s government, because they had never been revealed before the entrance of sin.
quote:
Another problem with this idea is it presuposes that sin is not self-destructive.
You are presupposing that sin is self-destructive.
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Re: Does it make any difference?
#15568
08/31/05 01:43 PM
08/31/05 01:43 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
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quote:
How do you know if a principle is or is not part of someone before the need arises for that principle to be revealed? On that basis, “Thou shalt not kill”, “Thou shalt not steal”, “Thou shalt not commit adultery”, and in fact all the ten commandments do not constitute principles of God’s government, because they had never been revealed before the entrance of sin.
Before sin, God never killed, stole, nor was unfaithful. The principles of the ten commandments had been revealed as long as God was alive, because they are outworking of His character.
God does not destroy, because it is not in His character to destroy.
quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.
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quote:
You are presupposing that sin is self-destructive.
That sin is self-destructive is evident in that sin can only exist with a host. It is like a paracite. It destroys its host, and hence kills itself.
The very principle of sin is suicidal.
quote:
Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. (DA 20)
From this we see:
1)Sin originated in self-seeking.
2)Satan seeks to lead others to himself by misrepresenting God's character.
3)He deceives men by investing God with his (Satan's) own characteristics.
What happens when one buys into Satan's lies? What happens when one lives by the principle of sin, which is one of self-seeking and distrust of God?
quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764)
This shows that sin is self-destructive. It leads one to separate from God, cutting oneself off from life. Cutting oneself off from life is self-destructive.
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Re: Does it make any difference?
#15569
09/01/05 02:10 AM
09/01/05 02:10 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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The ten commandments, of course, do not apply to God (in fact, God is above law). Many of them do not apply even to angels. They hadn’t been in force before sin, but this doesn’t mean they aren’t part of God’s government.
It hadn’t been necessary for God to destroy anything before sin, but destroying sin is part His nature. His glory destroys sin and everything that is contaminated by it. If God approached man now he would be destroyed. So how can you say that destroying is against the principles of God's government?
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Re: Does it make any difference?
#15570
08/31/05 07:17 PM
08/31/05 07:17 PM
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Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 449
England
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How long has sin reigned?
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8.
What others sinned with Satan?
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" 2 Peter 2:4.
Can there be sin where there is no law?
"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:15.
How was the first death brought about?
"And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him." Genesis 4:8.
What was the difference between the characters of the two men?
"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." 1 John 3:12.
Did the Lord impute sin to Cain for taking the life of his brother?
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand." Genesis 4:7-11.
In what condition was mankind before the flood?
"The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." Genesis 6:11.
What did God purpose to do with the people of that day?
"And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." Genesis 6:13.
What was Noah called?
"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly." 2 Peter 2:5.
Why did the Lord destroy Sodom?
"But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly." Genesis 13:13.
"For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it." Genesis 19:13.
By what standard were their deeds weighed?
"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.)" 2 Peter 2:7,8.
What did Joseph say when he was tempted on a certain point?
"There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" Genesis 39:9.
What did God tell Abraham concerning the Amorites?
"But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full." Genesis 15:16.
Of what sin were they specially guilty?
"And he did very abominably in following idols, according to all things as did the Amorites, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel." 1 Kings 21:26.
Why did the Lord abhor the nations that occupied Canaan before Israel?
"Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them." Leviticus 20:22,23.
Why did God make His promise to the seed of Abraham?
"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Genesis 26:5.
What will the children of Abraham do?
"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39.
Who are the children of Abraham?
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29.
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Re: Does it make any difference?
#15571
08/31/05 08:45 PM
08/31/05 08:45 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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R:The ten commandments, of course, do not apply to God Tom:The 10 commandments are a transcipt of God's character. They are summarized in a word; love. That is, self-sacrificing love; agape. God is agape. Everything God does is in harmony with His law. It couldn't be otherwise. R:(in fact, God is above law). Tom:The law is a transcript of God's character. God is love personified. To put it simply, He considers the interests of others above His own. He is totally unselfish, to the point of giving all that He has for the benefit of His creatures. There is no disharmony whatsoever between God and His law. R:Many of them do not apply even to angels. They hadn’t been in force before sin, but this doesn’t mean they aren’t part of God’s government. Tom:The law was always in force. It is the transcript of God's character. It's not an arbitrary thing. God simply made known the principles of His government, principles which have always existed. R:It hadn’t been necessary for God to destroy anything before sin, but destroying sin is part His nature. His glory destroys sin and everything that is contaminated by it. If God approached man now he would be destroyed. So how can you say that destroying is against the principles of God's government? Tom:Sin is a principle which is suicidal. It leads to death, as described here: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
There is also the statement that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked (DA 108). This means there is something different about the wicked, which causes the same thing which gives life to the righteous to cause their death.
If this is what you have in mind in asserting that it is a part of God's character to destroy sin, then I agree.
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