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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: James Peterson] #155618
08/31/13 01:30 AM
08/31/13 01:30 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
What does someone repent of, when he has not sinned?

It depends on your definition of repentance. For me, the basic definition is being sorrowful for and turning away from something. It's a spiritual U-turn, because you don't want to go in the same direction.

If you have fleshly lusts that war against the soul, should you be sorrowful for that? Should you turn away from that? Is that a direction you don't want to continue in? If so, then it needs repentance.

Is it a sin to have fleshly lusts? To lust after your neighbor's wife? Some people say it is, even if you don't actually do it.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: asygo] #155623
08/31/13 05:08 AM
08/31/13 05:08 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The lusts of the flesh is the lusts of the flesh - not the lusts of believers abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. Sinful flesh tempts believers from within to satisfy innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. For example, the flesh tempts believers to overindulge. Instead of overindulging, believers are temperate.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: Mountain Man] #155636
08/31/13 11:52 AM
08/31/13 11:52 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The lusts of the flesh is the lusts of the flesh - not the lusts of believers abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. Sinful flesh tempts believers from within to satisfy innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. For example, the flesh tempts believers to overindulge. Instead of overindulging, believers are temperate.

That is true, but sin is not human. Sin is not of human origin. It is not a matter of "the flesh".

The nature of sin is actually heavenly and spiritual. It's source lies at the very foundation of the throne of God. Lucifer was THE covering cherub, but the desire to supplant God overcame him to the point now that he seeks to destroy everything in his path to what he deems as his glory: the worship of angels and men.

Sin is a spiritual matter, the end result of the desire, as you say, "to overindulge". Sin neglects to heed the warning of wisdom, and seeks instant gratification. Is it ok to eat? Of course it is! But when the stomach is satisfied, why eat more? The flesh does not sin. The flesh is saying it is satisfied; but the spirit of inquity works against the flesh seeking to destroy it, pushing the flesh to consume more than is right.
....
...

Last edited by James Peterson; 08/31/13 11:53 AM.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: James Peterson] #155641
09/01/13 01:33 AM
09/01/13 01:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Interesting observations, James. Is there a distinction between body and flesh?

Quote:
3. The Body
The body is our internal organs. It is where our appetites and passions reside and originate. Appetite has to do with food and drink, whereas passion is the seat of our emotions. As our body reacts to internal and external stimuli it produces innocent and legitimate needs which are communicated as electrical impulses.

"Our foes are within and without. We are assailed by temptations which are numerous and deceiving, the more perilous because not always clearly discerned. Often Satan conquers us by our natural inclinations and appetites. These were divinely appointed, and when given to man, were pure and holy. It was God’s design that reason should rule the appetites, and that they should minister to our happiness. And when they are regulated and controlled by a sanctified reason, they are holiness unto the Lord.

"But men’s natural appetites have been perverted by indulgence. Through unholy gratification they have become “fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.” Unless the Christian watches unto prayer, he gives loose reign to habits which should be overcome. Unless he feels the need of constant watching, ceaseless vigilance, his inclinations, abused and misguided, will be the means of his backsliding from God." (14 MR 294, 295)

"You are of that age when the will, the appetite, and the passions clamor for indulgence. God has implanted these in your nature for high and holy purposes. It is not necessary that they should become a curse to you by being debased. They will become this only when you refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience." (3T 84)

"Christ came to bring to man moral power that he may be victorious in overcoming temptations on the point of appetite, and break the chain of the slavery of habit and indulgence of perverted appetite and stand forth in moral power as a man, and the record of heaven accredits him in its books as a man in the sight of God." (TE 264)

4. The Flesh
The flesh intercepts the innocent and legitimate needs produced by our body and converts them into unholy thoughts and feelings. For example, “I’m hungry”, is translated as, “Eat this and that”, without reference to truth or temperance. Our flesh has, as it were, a mind and voice of its own, which we must learn to disown as the voice of Satan. It generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings and will continue to do so until Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless body and flesh. “Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest ...” (MB 15) “The voice and passions must be crucified.” (TSB 98)

Possessing sinful flesh, however, is not a sin. Sinning is a matter of choice and character. We do not become accountable for our inherited sinful propensities until we desire them or act them out. The sinful thoughts and feelings produced by fallen flesh are nothing more than perverted legitimate needs that must be brought under the control of a sanctified mind and will.

"The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words “flesh” or “fleshly” or “carnal lusts” embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness." (AH 127)

"The bodies of human beings, made for the dwelling place of God, had become the habitation of demons. The senses, the nerves, the passions, the organs of men, were worked by supernatural agencies in the indulgence of the vilest lust. The very stamp of demons was impressed upon the countenances of men. Human faces reflected the expression of the legions of evil with which they were possessed." (DA 36)

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: Mountain Man] #155646
09/01/13 03:43 AM
09/01/13 03:43 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Interesting observations, James. Is there a distinction between body and flesh?

No. But we are enticed to do wrong by demons. Then we respond. When we fall, we sin. When we resist, we grow.

Often times, however, we fall, see no immediate ill, and think it is not bad to sin. It becomes a part of our character, and we do those things naturally and need no temptation at all. The opposite is true as well. When we resist temptation, we grow out of it and naturally keep the commandments of God. We grow into the likeness of Jesus Christ.

But ALL temptations originate from the spirit world of demons.
.....
..

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: James Peterson] #155677
09/01/13 03:28 PM
09/01/13 03:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, it sounds like you believe sinful flesh nature does not tempt us from within to satisfy our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. Am I hearing you right? What would happen if Jesus refused to allow evil angels to tempt us? Would we cease to sin?

1 Corinthians
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: Mountain Man] #155685
09/01/13 06:45 PM
09/01/13 06:45 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, it sounds like you believe sinful flesh nature does not tempt us from within to satisfy our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. Am I hearing you right? What would happen if Jesus refused to allow evil angels to tempt us? Would we cease to sin?

1 Corinthians
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].


First of all, demons will ALWAYS have access to us. Through Adam, we sold ourselves to them. And to the very end, they will harass us. See Rev. 16:12-16.

Secondly, God made Adam and Eve perfect. There was no fault in them. But when they opened the door to demons, they fell under the spell of both willful and unknowing enticements to sin. Even to this day, our body functions rather well, but our mind is led astray by many things. As I said previously, hunger is not a sin, but eating gluttenously or distructively is. Sin is giving in to every whim and fancy, every tug of desire, without thought of the commandment of God or the welbeing of others or ourselves way into the future.

The day will come however when, beyond the reach of demons, and with the encouragement of God and the renewal of our bodies, we will not be tempted, nor will we ever break the commandments of God again.
.....
...

Last edited by James Peterson; 09/01/13 06:49 PM.
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: James Peterson] #155702
09/02/13 02:11 PM
09/02/13 02:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, there is no doubt Jesus will permit evil angels to tempt us to the very end. Thank you for pointing it out. And, thank you Jesus, we can resist them unto the honor and glory of God. I'm not clear, though, what you believe is the origin of temptations. It sounds like you are saying all temptations originate with evil angels and that sinful flesh nature does not tempt us from within. Again, if Jesus refused to allow evil angels to tempt us, would sinful flesh nature tempt us from within? Or, would temptations cease? For example, if people were sitting alone in the wilderness, could they be tempted (if Jesus refused to allow evil angels to tempt them)? If so, what would be the origin of their temptations?

PS - Please don't misunderstand my questions. If you believe sinful flesh nature does not tempt us from within that's fine; I'm not here to find fault or criticize. I am merely trying to understand what you believe.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: Mountain Man] #155706
09/02/13 10:20 PM
09/02/13 10:20 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, there is no doubt Jesus will permit evil angels to tempt us to the very end. Thank you for pointing it out. And, thank you Jesus, we can resist them unto the honor and glory of God. I'm not clear, though, what you believe is the origin of temptations. It sounds like you are saying all temptations originate with evil angels and that sinful flesh nature does not tempt us from within. Again, if Jesus refused to allow evil angels to tempt us, would sinful flesh nature tempt us from within? Or, would temptations cease? For example, if people were sitting alone in the wilderness, could they be tempted (if Jesus refused to allow evil angels to tempt them)? If so, what would be the origin of their temptations?

PS - Please don't misunderstand my questions. If you believe sinful flesh nature does not tempt us from within that's fine; I'm not here to find fault or criticize. I am merely trying to understand what you believe.


Our bodies were made to fulfil the design set by God. We must eat, expel, sleep, work, learn, procreate. Above and beyond that, we were given intelligence to control those impulses; and from God, we learn when those impulses are permitted and when they are not.

If we misapply any, in whatever circumstance, we sin. The body (or "flesh") is not inherently evil. It is our inability through habit or ignorance or refusal through wilful disobedience that causes us to sin. We are our minds, as Jesus said:

Originally Posted By: Mat. 15:16-20
[Whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated.] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the [mind], and they defile a man. For out of the [mind] proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat ... does not defile a man.


The enticement of demons coupled with our lives living in darkness because of Adam, has given us warped characters. However, when we dedicate our lives to God, He creates in us a new [mind], and we live according to His commandments: making right decisions. It is true to say that "sinful flesh nature does NOT tempt us from within". The desire to give in to gluttony is not the body tempting you. You are satisfied. Your mind is playing tricks on you.

YOU (your mind) was given to you to control your body. And your body was given to you to inform your mind; but if your mind is broken, you will not be able to control your body. Your body will inform you of many things, EVEN IN HEAVEN, but YOU MUST CONTROL IT, otherwise you will perish.
....
..

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2013 Study - Revival & Reformation [Re: Mountain Man] #155742
09/03/13 08:05 PM
09/03/13 08:05 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The lusts of the flesh is the lusts of the flesh - not the lusts of believers abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature.

Can we generalize this? Check this out: The ______ of the flesh is the ______ of the flesh - not the ______ of believers abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature.

Is that true?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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