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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #155835
09/06/13 04:12 AM
09/06/13 04:12 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
"Common sense"??? this is MAN's thinking. But let's takes Green's thinking - The wages of a teacher, lawyer or a doctor come from works, are we to assume this is a good analogy?. What if a worker does not fulfill their duty? Are they then punished, no, executed! for bad performance? No. They are let go.


First of all, "common sense" is important to possess. It may be a natural form of thinking, but those who do not have it are even more into "man's thinking" than those who do. Think about it.

Mrs. White speaks of "common sense" in over a hundred places on the published CD. According to her, perhaps your parents did not do their job, as it was their duty to teach their offspring "common sense."

"Parents should teach their children to take a common-sense view of life, to realize that they are to be useful in the world." -- EGW.

But here is a more powerful statement, one that I will enclose in the typical quote box.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
We are to be guided by true theology and common sense.

If that is "man's thinking," APL, why does the Servant of the Lord recommend it?

Only those bereft of good common sense would disdain it.

Now, as to the latter point you have attempted to make, let us consider the following: We are not merely "workers" for God. We are His soldiers. This is war--the "Great Controversy." Soldiers who disobey orders are indeed shot for dereliction of duty or court-martialed. This can be for as little as having fallen asleep at their post.

God's law says we are to die if we disobey. That is not the law of sin, but the law of God. God, therefore, as maker of the law, is also the one with the authority and responsibility to uphold it, and to execute its penalty upon its transgressors.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155839
09/06/13 05:19 AM
09/06/13 05:19 AM
APL  Offline
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green - see my reply over in the wrath of God thread. Your "commen sense" interpretation of the wages paid for human work does not translate to God's ways which are not our ways. I have no problem with "common sense" as applied to human things. But your analogy does not translate to God.

Sin pays its wage, death. God does not use force, God does not kill, these are not found in God's government. Your picture of soldiers being shot for dereliction of duty does not fit with God's government, that is only your "common sense" view of fallen humanity.

The war is over the character and government of God. Whose side are you on? Christ has shown us in His life on this planet what the character of God is like, and it does NOT fit your picture which just described.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #155840
09/06/13 05:27 AM
09/06/13 05:27 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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APL,

Define "force."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155860
09/06/13 12:06 PM
09/06/13 12:06 PM
APL  Offline
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The use of might and power. How do YOU define it?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #155908
09/08/13 03:48 AM
09/08/13 03:48 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

Define "force."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Originally Posted By: APL
The use of might and power. How do YOU define it?


Then God uses force. smile By your application of this definition, no loving God could be mighty. That, unfortunately, shows the depths to which your theories would take you.

But my God is powerful and mighty, and it is no sin for Him to exercise His might and power. By His own mighty hand He has done many wondrous things. His hand hung the worlds in space, created all we know, even fashioning mankind. By His powerful breath, He gave Adam life.

No, your definition is not wrong, just misapplied. God indeed uses "force."

But the question is not really what does "force" mean, it is what did Mrs. White mean by it? The following definitions were available to her in her day for this word.

Originally Posted By: Webster's 1828 Dictionary
FORCE, n. [L. fortis. All words denoting force, power, strength, are from verbs which express straining, or driving, rushing, and this word has the elements of L. vireo.]
1. Strength; active power; vigor; might; energy that may be exerted; that physical property in a body which may produce action or motion in another body, or may counteract such motion. By the force of the muscles we raise a weight, or resist an assault.
2. Momentum; the quantity of power produced by motion or the action of one body on another; as the force of a cannon ball.
3. That which causes an operation or moral effect; strength; energy; as the force of the mind, will or understanding.
4. Violence; power exerted against will or consent; compulsory power. Let conquerors consider that force alone can keep what force as obtained.
5. Strength; moral power to convince the mind. There is great force in an argument.
6. Virtue; efficacy. No presumption or hypothesis can be of force enough to overthrow constant experience.
7. Validity; power to bind or hold. If the conditions of a covenant are not fulfilled, the contract is of no force. A testament is of force after the testator is dead. Hebrews 9:17.
8. Strength or power for war; armament; troops; an army or navy; as a military or naval force: sometimes in the plural; as military forces.
9. Destiny; necessity; compulsion; any extraneous power to which men are subject; as the force of fate or of divine decrees.
10. Internal power; as the force of habit.
11. In law, any unlawful violence to person or property. This is simple, when no other crime attends it, as the entering into another's possession, without committing any other unlawful act. It is compound, when some other violence or unlawful act is committed. The law also implies force, as when a person enters a house or inclosure lawfully, but afterwards does an unlawful act. In this case, the law supposes the first entrance to be for that purpose, and therefore by force.
Physical force, is the force of material bodies.
Moral force, is the power of acting on the reason in judging and determining.
Mechanical force, is the power that belongs to bodies at rest or in motion. The pressure or tension of bodies at rest is called a mechanical force, and so is the power of a body in motion. There is also the force of gravity or attraction, centrifugal and centripetal forces, expansive force, etc.


Of those definitions of "force," numbers 4 and 11 may be the only choices available for the proper understanding of Mrs. White's intent by the word in this case.

Mrs. White acknowledges that God forces... smile Here, to conserve space, are some relevant one-liners.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The peace of God within will force off the withered or gnarled branches of selfishness, vanity, pride, and indolence.

It is God's design that... There must be a force of influence in the cities, that the message of warning shall be heard.-- Review and Herald, April 14, 1903.

No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force.

God wants men to cultivate force of character.

The power of God alone can force it from its usurped position.

Satan has caused the change of the Sabbath.... He seeks to make the commands of God of less force in the world than human laws. {7BC 975.7}

Feeling our dependence upon God, we shall realize the force of Christ's words when He said, "Without me ye can do nothing."

I saw the burden of the message should be the first, second, and third angels' messages, and those who had any hope in God would yield to the force of that truth. {5MR 203.3}


APL, you don't keep Sunday, do you?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Our most bitter opponents are found among the first-day Adventists. They do not engage in the warfare honorably. They will pursue any course, however unreasonable and inconsistent, to cover up the truth and try to make it appear that the law of God is of no force.


Why would you represent God or His law (a transcript of His character) as being of no force?

What is force?

Be careful how you define and divide the Word of Truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155918
09/08/13 01:25 PM
09/08/13 01:25 PM
APL  Offline
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GREEN - - do you always ignore context? Do you always make the Prince of Peace the Prince of War? Do always picture God as using Kingdoms of this world methods? God uses NO FORCE TO COMPEL CONSCIENCE. As EGW says, "The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." {DA 22.1} Or, " God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power". {DA 759.1}

Prophecy has plainly stated the nature of Christ's kingdom. He planned a government which would use no force; his subjects would know no oppression. The symbols of earthly governments are wild beasts, but in the kingdom of Christ, men are called upon to behold, not a ferocious beast, but the Lamb of God. Not as a fierce tyrant did he come, but as the Son of man; not to conquer the nations by his iron power, but "to preach good tidings unto the meek;" "to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" "to comfort all that mourn." He came as the divine Restorer, bringing to oppressed and downtrodden humanity the rich and abundant grace of Heaven, that by the power of his righteousness, man, fallen and degraded though he was, might be a partaker of divinity. {RH, August 18, 1896 par. 3}

Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation. {RH, September 7, 1897 par. 7}

God does not force any one. It is not love me, or I'll kill you.

It is hard to kick against the pricks!!!

See also: {COL 77.1} {SC 43.4} {6T 236.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #155920
09/08/13 01:44 PM
09/08/13 01:44 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
GREEN - - do you always ignore context? Do you always make the Prince of Peace the Prince of War? Do always picture God as using Kingdoms of this world methods? God uses NO FORCE TO COMPEL CONSCIENCE. As EGW says, "The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." {DA 22.1} Or, " God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power". {DA 759.1}

Prophecy has plainly stated the nature of Christ's kingdom. He planned a government which would use no force; his subjects would know no oppression. The symbols of earthly governments are wild beasts, but in the kingdom of Christ, men are called upon to behold, not a ferocious beast, but the Lamb of God. Not as a fierce tyrant did he come, but as the Son of man; not to conquer the nations by his iron power, but "to preach good tidings unto the meek;" "to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" "to comfort all that mourn." He came as the divine Restorer, bringing to oppressed and downtrodden humanity the rich and abundant grace of Heaven, that by the power of his righteousness, man, fallen and degraded though he was, might be a partaker of divinity. {RH, August 18, 1896 par. 3}

Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation. {RH, September 7, 1897 par. 7}

God does not force any one. It is not love me, or I'll kill you.

It is hard to kick against the pricks!!!

See also: {COL 77.1} {SC 43.4} {6T 236.2}


Thank you, APL. NOW WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE! smile

I'm glad you have begun to learn Ellen White's usage of "compelling force." It has to do with the following things:

1) Conscience
2) Will
3) Choice

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given. A mere forced submission would prevent all real development of mind or character; it would make man a mere automaton. Such is not the purpose of the Creator.


Now, it is clear that once everyone has had the freedom to choose, and God has allowed this choice to occur with no use of force on His part, God's side of the matter is clear. He then has the prerogative, indeed the duty, of setting matters right. At this point, the destinies which each one has chosen per their own choices during their probationary lives will be granted them...some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting destruction.

God is not "forcing" at this point. But He chooses how the punishments of the wicked are administered. They may not wish to experience what they will then experience, but they have chosen it in their rejection of Christ.

No, it's not "love me or I'll kill you." But it's "obey and live or transgress and die." "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

God will not force our love. He will not force our obedience. But if we do not love Him, He will destroy us as the most merciful thing He could do. Imagine--being forced to live forever with a God you hated? Would that be "loving" on God's part? Of course not. This is why God's justice is equal to His love, and in fact, the two words are synonymous.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155923
09/08/13 03:59 PM
09/08/13 03:59 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Are you saying, God will not force us to live with Him forever, but will kill us instead to spare us the pain? And that is not the exercise of force???? Sin is what is the cause of death, not God.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #155924
09/08/13 05:54 PM
09/08/13 05:54 PM
Johann  Offline
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There must be spiteful rejoicing in the kingdom of darkness whenever they hear someone say that God is using their token, death, in the Great Controversy


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #155925
09/08/13 06:50 PM
09/08/13 06:50 PM
Johann  Offline
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Iceland
Who sentenced Jesus to death?

Was it a devoted child of God who issued the verdict of death after prayer and fasting?

Last edited by Johann; 09/08/13 06:52 PM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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