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Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Johann] #155787
09/05/13 01:51 AM
09/05/13 01:51 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
That is very possibly the most egregious translation error of the KJV. The correct translation for that Hebrew word is "murder." Unfortunately, this error has had many ramifications--to the point of, ironically, affecting the modern theologies of those who claim to like the modern versions which have it translated correctly!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155798
09/05/13 12:19 PM
09/05/13 12:19 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Green, the other part of the question was,

"How will you verify your choice?"

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #155800
09/05/13 12:37 PM
09/05/13 12:37 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
kland,

I have already, some years ago, studied the Hebrew word in that case. The Hebrew wording for that verse is not, to my knowledge, under dispute.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155810
09/05/13 02:20 PM
09/05/13 02:20 PM
Johann  Offline
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I asked which is the "superior" version here? According to your reply it is the NIV rendering. Thank you! That means that the KJV is not always superior, even by your standard.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155811
09/05/13 02:35 PM
09/05/13 02:35 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
kland,

I have already, some years ago, studied the Hebrew word in that case. The Hebrew wording for that verse is not, to my knowledge, under dispute.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Exodus 20:13 You shall notH3808 kill.H7523

- Original: רצח
- Transliteration: Ratsach
- Phonetic: raw-tsakh'
- Definition:
1. to murder, slay, kill
   a. (Qal) to murder, slay
      1. premeditated
      2. accidental
      3. as avenger
      4. slayer (intentional) (participle)
   b. (Niphal) to be slain
   c. (Piel)
      1. to murder, assassinate
      2. murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
   d. (Pual) to be killed
- Origin: a primitive root
- TWOT entry: 2208
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces that is kill (a human being) especially to murder: - put to death kill (man-) slay (-er) murder (-er).
Total KJV Occurrences: 47
death, 1
Num_35:30

kill, 4
Exo_20:13; Num_35:27; Deu_4:42; Deu_5:17

killed, 1
1Ki_21:19

killing, 1
Hos_4:2

manslayer, 2
Num_35:6; Num_35:12

murder, 3
Psa_94:6; Jer_7:9; Hos_6:9

murderer, 13
Num_35:16(2); Num_35:17(2); Num_35:18(2); Num_35:19; Num_35:21(2); Num_35:30; Num_35:31; 2Ki_6:32; Job_24:14

murderers, 1
Isa_1:21

slain, 3
Jdg_20:4; Psa_62:3; Pro_22:13

slayer, 17
Num_35:11; Num_35:25; Num_35:26; Num_35:27; Num_35:28; Deu_4:42; Deu_19:3; Deu_19:4; Deu_19:6; Jos_20:3; Jos_20:5; Jos_20:6; Jos_21:13; Jos_21:21; Jos_21:27; Jos_21:32; Jos_21:38

slayeth, 1
Deu_22:26


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #155818
09/05/13 07:17 PM
09/05/13 07:17 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
J: How will you verify your choice?
G: I verified it before.

*smile*


APL, according to that definition, Green is saying God is a breaker of His 10 commandments by being a killer, slayer, and murderer. But then again, he says God is above questioning, just like the jesuits are taught about their leaders.

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #155833
09/06/13 03:50 AM
09/06/13 03:50 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
J: How will you verify your choice?
G: I verified it before.

*smile*


APL, according to that definition, Green is saying God is a breaker of His 10 commandments by being a killer, slayer, and murderer. But then again, he says God is above questioning, just like the jesuits are taught about their leaders.


I'm sorry that you stoop to lying, kland, about my position in your haste to misrepresent me.

"Kill" does not equal "murder." I have posted on this multiple times. You still purposely twist my words to say the opposite.

God does not murder. God kills. There is a difference.

God forbids murder in the Ten Commandments. Yet God commanded killing multiple times. Is God a hypocrite? Far from it. YOU are the one who would try to represent God in this manner by saying that killing and murdering are the same thing.

God is not pleased with such "scholarship."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155834
09/06/13 03:58 AM
09/06/13 03:58 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Keep in mind that one cannot "murder" without "killing." Any definition of "murder," therefore, must necessarily include "kill" in some form. That is a given.

But one most certainly can "kill" without "murder." This is where logic is necessary. And perhaps some "commonUNcommon sense." Unfortunately, many choose their own private opinions these days above a clear "thus saith the LORD." The Bible explains in clear terms the difference between killing and murdering. I have posted on this before, more than once.

It seems that no matter how much good gravel is placed into the slough, we still have sufficient muck to mire the feet of those who carelessly walk through.

My challenge to you is this: find all of the places where killing is commanded, then find all of the places where murder is forbidden. Having compiled those lists, look specifically at the commands of God surrounding the duty of avengement. How would the avenger do his job properly? What would have been improper on his part?

Answering those last two questions will lead you to the clear distinction between killing and murdering.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155836
09/06/13 04:40 AM
09/06/13 04:40 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
The wrath of God may be delayed, but it is not to be delayed forever.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The Son of God pities fallen man. He knows that the law of his Father is as unchanging as himself. He can only see one way of escape for the transgressor. He offers himself to his Father as a sacrifice for man, to take their guilt and punishment upon himself, and redeem them from death by dying in their place, and thus pay the ransom. The Father consents to give his dearly beloved Son to save the fallen race; and through his merits and intercession promises to receive man again into his favor, and to restore holiness to as many as should be willing to accept the atonement thus mercifully offered, and obey his law. For the sake of his dear Son the Father forbears a while the execution of death, and to Christ he commits the fallen race. {3SG 46.3}


For those who have false views about the Cross, Mrs. White has some wisdom.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Some have limited views of the atonement. They think that Christ suffered only a small portion of the penalty of the law of God; they suppose that, while the wrath of God was felt by His dear Son, He had, through all His painful sufferings, the evidence of His Father’s love and acceptance; that the portals of the tomb before Him were illuminated with bright hope, and that He had the abiding evidence of His future glory. Here is a great mistake. Christ’s keenest anguish was a sense of His Father’s displeasure. His mental agony because of this was of such intensity that man can have but faint conception of it. {OFC 208.6}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155837
09/06/13 05:01 AM
09/06/13 05:01 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The dark cloud of human transgression came between the Father and the Son. The interruption of the communion between God and His Son caused a condition of things in the heavenly courts which cannot be described by human language. Nature could not witness such a scene as Christ dying in agony while bearing the penalty of man's transgression. God and the angels clothed themselves with darkness, and hid the Saviour from the gaze of the curious multitude while He drank the last dregs of the cup of God's wrath (Letter 139, 1898).


Some interesting points:

1) Our sins were as a "dark cloud" that eclipsed the communion of Father and Son, leaving the Saviour to bear the penalty of man's transgression.

2) Jesus "drank the last dregs of the cup of God's wrath." This resulted in His death.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I would call on all who would win heaven, to take warning. Do not devote your precious probationary time to sewing together fig leaves to cover the nakedness which is the result of sin. As you look into the Lord's great moral looking glass, His holy law, His standard of character, do not for a moment suppose that it can cleanse you. There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor. The penalty must be exacted. The Lord does not save sinners by abolishing His law, the foundation of His government in heaven and in earth. The punishment has been endured by the sinner's substitute. Not that God is cruel and merciless, and Christ so merciful that He died on Calvary's cross to abolish a law so arbitrary that it needed to be extinguished, crucified between two thieves. The throne of God must not bear one stain of crime, one taint of sin. In the councils of heaven, before the world was created, the Father and the Son covenanted together that if man proved disloyal to God, Christ, one with the Father, would take the place of the transgressor, and suffer the penalty of justice that must fall upon him (MS 145, 1897). {6BC 1070.4}


3) "The penalty must be exacted."

4) The punishment of death "has been endured by the sinner's substitute."

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The law of Jehovah, the foundation of his government in Heaven and upon earth, was as sacred as God himself; and for this reason the life of an angel could not be accepted of God as a sacrifice for its transgression. His law was of more importance in his sight than the holy angels around his throne. The Father could not abolish nor change one precept of his law to meet man in his fallen condition. But the Son of God, who had in unison with the Father created man, could make an atonement for man acceptable to God, by giving his life a sacrifice, and bearing the wrath of his Father. Angels informed Adam that, as his transgression had brought death and wretchedness, life and immortality would be brought to light through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. {1SP 50.2}


5) Jesus bore "the wrath of His Father" "by giving His life a sacrifice."

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
I appeal to all who profess to believe the truth, to consider the character and life of the Son of God. He is our example. His life was marked with disinterested benevolence. He was ever touched with human woe. He went about doing good. There was not one selfish act in all His life. His love for the fallen race, His desire to save them, was so great that He took upon Himself the wrath of His Father, and consented to suffer the penalty of that transgression which plunged guilty man in degradation. He bore the sins of man in His own body. "He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." {1T 482.2}


6) Jesus "took upon Himself the wrath of His Father."

7) He "consented to suffer the penalty of that transgression which plunged guilty man in degradation."

The penalty was death. The wrath of God imposed it. Jesus accepted His Father's wrath in our place, that we need not be subjected to it.

blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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