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Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #155981
09/10/13 11:46 AM
09/10/13 11:46 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Perhaps you have forgotten Ai, King Saul and Agag, or other cases in which the people rebelled by NOT killing those they were supposed to kill.
Perhaps you have also forgotten that these stories are of a people that have rejected God. Were the Israelites ever suppose to fight? Never! The first attack on Ai was a rejection of divine guidance. Was Israel ever to have a king besides God? Never! The asking for a king was a rejection of God. The history of Israel is of rejection of God with a few notable exceptions, such as the exodus, Jacob before Esau. The people were NEVER suppose to fight. But the children of Israel did fight, and under God's direction, but this in no way proves that is was God's purpose that they should fight. The people's minds were blinded by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation! And note, that after all their fighting, Israel did not gain their promised inheritance.


APL,

Where do you get this picture? Why do you believe Israel was never supposed to fight? Did not God command them to do so? Did not God bless them for doing so? Where is your support now?

Yes, there were times when God fought for them. But then...if God was doing the fighting, this doesn't seem to solve your problem either. You have established in your mind that all fighting is "evil," so why would God fight?

The Bible does not support such a view, however. There is a time to fight. It is not evil when done at the right time, for the right reasons, and with the right spirit.

Here are some "fighting" verses.
Originally Posted By: The Bible
The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace. (Exodus 14:14)

And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand. (Exodus 17:9)

The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes; (Deuteronomy 1:30)

Ye shall not fear them: for the LORD your God he shall fight for you. (Deuteronomy 3:22)

For the LORD your God [is] he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you. (Deuteronomy 20:4)

And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight. And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening. (Joshua 10:25-26)


Actually, that entire chapter of Deuteronomy 20 seems to be something of a "fighting manual" for the people, telling them how to make war with their enemies according to the Lord's directions. I'll paste the full chapter in the following quote box.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Deuteronomy 20
20:1 When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, [and] a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God [is] with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
20:2 And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people,
20:3 And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them;
20:4 For the LORD your God [is] he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.
20:5 And the officers shall speak unto the people, saying, What man [is there] that hath built a new house, and hath not dedicated it? let him go and return to his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man dedicate it.
20:6 And what man [is he] that hath planted a vineyard, and hath not [yet] eaten of it? let him [also] go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man eat of it.
20:7 And what man [is there] that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.
20:8 And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man [is there that is] fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren's heart faint as well as his heart.
20:9 And it shall be, when the officers have made an end of speaking unto the people, that they shall make captains of the armies to lead the people.
20:10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, [that] all the people [that is] found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off from thee, which [are] not of the cities of these nations.
20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
20:18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
20:19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an ax against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field [is] man's [life]) to employ [them] in the siege:
20:20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they [be] not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.


We also see in the first chapter of Judges that God asks each tribe to go up to fight the Canaanites in turn. Why would God command them thus if they weren't supposed to?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155983
09/10/13 12:19 PM
09/10/13 12:19 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Shesh green - did you read your quotations??????

Exodus 14:14 The LORD will fight for you, and you have only to keep still.
Were the people suppose to fight? Nope!

Deuteronomy 1:30 The LORD your God, who goes before you, is the one who will fight for you, just as he did for you in Egypt before your very eyes,
Who was to fight? Not the people. Israel was not to fight.

Deuteronomy 3:22 Do not fear them, for it is the LORD your God who fights for you.
Were the people suppose to fight? Nope.

Deuteronomy 20:4 for it is the LORD your God who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to give you victory."
Were the people suppose to fight? Nope.

Why did God take the long route to the promised land? So they would not need to fight! Exodus 13.

What was God's plan? Not to fight!!!
Deuteronomy 7:17-22
17 If you say to yourself, "These nations are more numerous than I; how can I dispossess them?"
18 do not be afraid of them. Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all Egypt,
19 the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs and wonders, the mighty hand and the outstretched arm by which the LORD your God brought you out. The LORD your God will do the same to all the peoples of whom you are afraid.
20 Moreover, the LORD your God will send the pestilence against them, until even the survivors and the fugitives are destroyed.
21 Have no dread of them, for the LORD your God, who is present with you, is a great and awesome God.
22 The LORD your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to make a quick end of them, otherwise the wild animals would become too numerous for you.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #155984
09/10/13 12:31 PM
09/10/13 12:31 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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APL,

If God said He would fight for them once, does that mean that God would ALWAYS ask the people to let Him do the fighting for them and NEVER ask the people to fight?

The problem with such "black and white" thinking is that it is not correct.

Furthermore, I quoted BOTH sets of verses for a reason: to show that GOD fights.

I see that you accept that God does indeed fight. Why? If you believe it was wrong for the people to fight, how come you accept that God was under a different standard? (This seems to be what I have been trying to tell you all along, but you had not accepted before.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155986
09/10/13 01:22 PM
09/10/13 01:22 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
You are still blind. HOW does God fight? Look at Jesus.

We are NEVER to fight. We are not to resist evil. Have you not read Matthew 5? That does not mean we can't have passive resistance. Look at Gandhi or Martin Luther King. Did they fight? Did they accomplish good things? Sadly, did it last? And why did it not last? Probably just like the comparison of the children of Israel going against Ai. The lost faith.

Do you have faith in God green?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #155988
09/10/13 01:47 PM
09/10/13 01:47 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
kland,

The distinction between murder or killing has little to do with whether or not the death is deserved. It has more to do with something else that you will discover better for yourself by researching the matter from the Bible. However, whether or not the death is deserved has to do with whether or not it was "just." Justice sometimes involves the death penalty. When we understand that, then we understand how God might use the death penalty in strict justice.
It sounds like you are trying to say that the distinction has nothing to do with whether the death was deserved but whether it was justly deserved.

Not sure what that means.

But going with your one position that the distinction has little to do with whether or not the death is deserved, why did you say the following?

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
You attempted to compare what God did to Saul as to what David did to Uriah.

How does that fit or not fit with any distinctions between killing and murder you hope to make?

Which death was deserved? Which one represented justice, and which was merely malicious?

Do you not see a difference?
Would you be saying here the distinction of killing or murder is determined whether the one killed deserved death or not?

Quote:
I used the example of Uriah to illustrate the fact that the sword can be used by someone who is not responsible for the death. The responsibility for Uriah's death fell squarely upon David, and it was "murder." David himself, as you well know, was nowhere near the scene of Uriah's death. David didn't "kill" Uriah. But David "murdered" him.

Do you see the difference?
No. You compared what you said God did to what David did.

The responsibility for Uriah's death fell squarely upon David.
You say the responsibility for Saul's death fell squarely upon God.

David was nowhere near the scene of Uriah's death.
God was nowhere near the scene of Saul's death.

David didn't kill Uriah. But David "murdered" him.
Therefore, according to you, God "murdered" Saul.

How can you possibly see a difference?


Can you focus on your comparison of God with David?

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #156003
09/11/13 02:31 AM
09/11/13 02:31 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
HOW does God fight?


I've already listed some of those ways, including floods, earthquakes, sword, fire, storms, etc. But since you are inquiring again, I'll list some more.

Remember what "faith" is? Faith is belief in action. Our actions (works) show whether or not we truly have faith. "Faith without works is dead." While we may sometimes wield the sword, God is still the One in charge, and to Whom the honor and glory is due when victory is obtained.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
As Aaron and Hur supported the hands of Moses, they showed the people their duty to sustain him in his arduous work while he should receive the word from God to speak to them. And the act of Moses also was significant, showing that God held their destiny in His hands; while they made Him their trust, He would fight for them and subdue their enemies; but when they should let go their hold upon Him, and trust in their own power, they would be even weaker than those who had not the knowledge of God, and their foes would prevail against them. {CC 95.5}


How was God "fighting" in the above circumstance? Through the swords of the Israelite soldiers, and only as long as Moses' hands were held aloft to show the faith of all of them in God their Helper.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
When Joshua went forth in the morning before the taking of Jericho, there appeared before him a warrior fully equipped for battle. And Joshua asked, "Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?" and he answered, "As Captain of the host of the Lord am I now come." If the eyes of Joshua had been opened as were the eyes of the servant of Elisha at Dothan, and he could have endured the sight, he would have seen the angels of the Lord encamped about the children of Israel; for the trained army of heaven had come to fight for the people of God, and the Captain of the Lord's host was there to command. When Jericho fell, no human hand touched the walls of the city, for the angels of the Lord overthrew the fortifications, and entered the fortress of the enemy. It was not Israel, but the Captain of the Lord's host that took Jericho. But Israel had their part to act to show their faith in the Captain of their salvation. {CC 117.3}


Again, God fought for them, via His own angels, throwing down the strongholds and fortifications of Jericho, "but Israel had their part to act to show their faith in the Captain of their salvation."

That last sentence is interesting. How is it that the Israelites are made to appear as if they were to be lost apart from God's help in this battle? Were they not on the offensive, overthrowing a people to take their land to themselves? And what part did Israel play at Jericho? Of course, we know of their marches around the city. But after the walls fell, what happened then?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
All the inhabitants of the city [Jericho], with every living thing that it contained, "both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass," were put to the sword. Only faithful Rahab, with her household, was spared, in fulfillment of the promise of the spies. The city itself was burned.--PP 491 (1890).


Whose sword was it that God used? The sword of the Israelite.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow [withal]: and they cried, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon. And they stood every man in his place round about the camp: and all the host ran, and cried, and fled. And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, [and] to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath. (Judges 7:20-22)


Whose sword was used in Gideon's case? "The sword of the LORD." What sword was that? The sword of the enemy soldier, that is, the sword of the Amalekite and the sword of the Midianite.

According to the Bible, in David's case "the sword of the LORD" was a pestilence that in three days killed seventy thousand men of the Israelites--for David's sin in numbering the people.

How does God fight? Does it matter? He who created us knows how to keep us in check when necessary. He can use "natural" means or "supernatural" means. Either one is fully under His control, and while we might think the "natural" means somewhat more removed from Him, they are His agents just the same. Yet God is not limited to but one method of working. He has many. God is all-powerful, and God is creative and imaginative. God enjoys variety, even in His ways of working with us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #156005
09/11/13 02:38 AM
09/11/13 02:38 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
We are NEVER to fight. We are not to resist evil.


I'm very sorry to see that you have adopted such a view. Never is a strong word. There are times, indeed, when we should not fight nor resist. But there are times when we absolutely MUST do so.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Say, I will do right, I will resist evil, and the Lord will help me. {AY 56.1}


"The Christian, while he is ever ready to give the soft answer that turneth away wrath, must possess the courage of a hero to resist evil." --EGW.

"Resist the devil and he will flee from you." --The Bible.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #156006
09/11/13 02:40 AM
09/11/13 02:40 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Can you focus on your comparison of God with David?


I would be happy to.

Let's start with the "beginning of David's ministry." His beginning was with Goliath. Let's look at just one important question from the story:

Why did David fight Goliath?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #156009
09/11/13 11:25 AM
09/11/13 11:25 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: green
"Resist the devil and he will flee from you." --The Bible.
Green - you are black and white, I need to remember this. First, resistance does not necessarily mean violence. We are not to fight with violence. As the Bible says:
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

"we do not war after the flesh".


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #156010
09/11/13 11:31 AM
09/11/13 11:31 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

The "black and white" part was that which said "we are not to resist evil." The only way one could reach such a conclusion would be to have ignored the times when we are to do exactly that--resist evil. This is why I brought the Bible to balance your thinking.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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