The brain is part of the body, but the mind (thoughts), when placed under the control of the Holy Spirit thinks differently than the mind that is left to run in it's own channels.




Your misunderstanding results from reading too quickly and skipping information.
I mentioned a sudden complete change in DNA could only happen if God re-created Adam and Eve carnal in that instant.
You objected and
I agreed that God did not suddenly change Adam and Eve's DNA into carnal DNA.
I did NOT say DNA cannot change. DNA changes little by little over time and through generations as the result of sinful habits and abusing the laws of nature. There has obviously been a great change in human DNA from the time of Adam to our present day.
It's the SUDDEN DNA change that I objected to.

Did God create viruses?
-- viruses developed from things that God created, but God did not create virus in it's destructive form. AND that development wasn't sudden either, -- the health of pre-flood peoples was astonishingly healthy, they didn't battle all the viruses that developed over the later centuries.




It does NOT tell me that a whole bunch of viruses suddenly popped up the day Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
In fact people didn't seem to get sick in the pre-flood era -- they lived to be almost 1000 years old.
It took more than 2000 years for sin to wear down the human system and develop disease causing viruses that greatly shortened people's lives. By the time Christ came the first time, disease was all over the place -- but you don't read that being the case in the Genesis stories.



It does NOT mean that Christ had to be "born again" from a carnal minded being to a spiritual minded person, he was born of the Spirit from the beginning of His human existence. His DNA was inherited giving Him the physical body like others living at that time, with all it's wants and needs, but his mind was filled with the Holy Spirit from the beginning, enabling Him to keep His thoughts on the things that were pure and holy. -- that's what "born again" means -- born of the spirit.

To "sanctify" means to set apart for holy purpose.
(God sanctified the Sabbath day -- set it apart for Holy Purpose in Genesis 2)

John 17 was Jesus prayer before the "hour of darkness" in Gethsemane and the crucifixion. As a human, Christ's holy sinlessness was dependant upon prayer and constant connection with the Father. And at this time especially the whole world hung in the balance as Jesus set Himself apart for a holy purpose, a purpose that His humanity shrank from, -- that of a cruel death -- dying for the lost mankind.

Jesus commits himself to the obedience of death for a holy purpose (for the salvation of humanity) so His disciples likewise may be set apart for a holy purpose.





None of the quotes disagree with what I wrote:

This is talking about Christ experiencing a completely different "born again" than what I was referring to.
Yes, Christ who was God, (He existed prior to His incarnation) came to this earth and was BORN with a human body. He descended from a celestial Being, and He was born human with the complete DNA that makes up a human body; the DNA that had undergone 4000 years of degeneration due to sin.

But AS A HUMAN (once He was born as a human) He didn't have to be "born again" from carnal minded to spiritual minded -- Christ was not born with a carnal mind, -- He never partook of sin, He never sinned even in thought, there was no sin in Him. He did not have to be born again from the carnal to the spiritual.
He did not have to experience the "born again" experience we MUST experience.

Yes, because Christ descended from heaven and took on humanity, being born with a human body, therefore we can be born again with a spiritual mind, and eventual-- at the second coming, given a new body.

Christ's humanity is what we, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit may gain a likeness to.

When we are "born again" our minds (thinking focus and thinking patterns) become spiritual.

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Romans 12:1-2 present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,
Eph. Ephesians 4:22-24
Put off concerning the former way of life concerning the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

But while Christ became like us (was born) in a physical state like us, He was never like us in our carnal state -- He was never carnal.
His mind was always alive to spiritual realities (born of the spirit).

If we can say what it is - it won't be unknown anymore.

Everyone has a multitude of sins they have to battle with. The Holy Spirit through different means leads us to recognize and overcome these sins -- but not all at once.

It's sort of like cleaning house.
A person comes to Christ and surrenders their life to Him. Born again their minds are open to spiritual things.
Immediately great changes take place -- all the obvious things tend to be dealt with rather quickly, for a born again Christian does not want to sin and bring dishonor upon Christ.

But there are lots of corners, cupboards, closets, etc. in a house. After a big cleaning -- the house looks and feels clean as long as those closets and cupboards remain closed.

So now, the holy Spirit starts taking us through those closets, and pointing out LITTLE things (at least we had thought them little) that shouldn't be there. It's amazing how we can deceive ourselves on some of these so called little things.

And the Holy Spirit always seems to find more "little things" in the drawers of our minds and hearts. After we've finally, by Divine help, cleaned out the character defects He pointed to in the last drawer He opened, there always seems to be more in some other little drawer of the mind. And some of those "little" things, seem to be so much a part of us (that's who I am) sort of feeling that it takes time to change, as we keep falling back into it.
There are sins of omission, commission, and simply wishing, sins of attitude, interpersonal sins, pride, selfishness, lack of love, the list is long.

Anyone who thinks they have cleaned out all sin in their lives just because they have "cleaned out" all the obvious sins has a small picture of sin.

All we can do is allow the Holy Spirit to lead in our lives in this cleaning work, and follow in obedience, claiming the promise

Phil. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:


Believers do not willingly sin.
That does not mean they have nothing left to overcome.

Are they ignorant of the fact they are committing one of these sins 1) before, 2) during, and 3) after they sin? Or, are they aware of the fact immediately after they sin? Also, are people around them aware of the fact they are sinning?

In particular, which sins do believers commit unknowingly who have learned how to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded?

Is cherishing sin a form of "doing"?

Good questions. I, for one, do not believe having a disease counts as "THE transgression of THE law". True, the existence of disease is the result of sinning (normally human choices, sometimes evil angels tampering with nature); however, having a disease is not the same as sinning. Innocent people get diseases quite regularly. It is nor their fault. They didn't sin.

Jesus didn't have to sin to suffer our sin debt of death. He suffered for each and every sin committed before, during, and after His sojourn on earth. He suffered as though He had committed them Himself.

I never said that personal disease is always a result of personal transgression. Do recall Exodus 20:5. Certain childhood cancers can be related back to what grand parents experience. Still, all disease is ultimately a result of the transgression.

Your last paragraph uses a lot of nice catchy phrases, but what do they mean? "sin debt" for example. 1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed." Note the end result - HEALING. How was it Christ bore our sins in His body? He never transgressed!

Is there a difference between "cherishing" (loving and refusing to give up) a sin and unconsciously having sin?

APL, in my mind it is very simple. This may disqualify me as a study partner. The definition of sin is "the transgression of the the law." People who think, speak, or act contrary to the law of God (10C) are guilty of sinning. Jesus paid the price for sin. He made atonement and salvation available to people who comply with the conditions.

To my way of thinking cherishing sin is fundamentally different than not knowing you are sinning (because you don't realize it is a sin, you haven't learned it or been convicted yet).

What do you think?

Are they ignorant of the fact they are committing one of these sins 1) before, 2) during, and 3) after they sin? Or, are they aware of the fact immediately after they sin?

Also, are people around them aware of the fact they are sinning?

In particular, which sins do believers commit unknowingly who have learned how to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded?