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Did Christ Die the Second Death? #155894
09/07/13 11:01 PM
09/07/13 11:01 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Here is a study I came across which first says He did not die the Second Death, then goes on to show that Christ did die the 'equivalent' of the Second Death which I find a interesting way to put it.

'..........The question is asked, "Did Christ die the second death?" No, He did not. Nowhere in Scripture or the writings of Ellen G. White is there found any explicit statement that "Christ died the second death."

What we do have is a vast body of evidence that He did indeed die the equivalent of the second death.

Is there a difference? Absolutely! To say that Christ died the second death, a death from which there is no resurrection, would be to say that Christ remains dead, our faith is vain and we remain yet in our sins (1 Corinthians 15:17-19).* That is certainly Bad News.

But the Gospel is filled with Good News. Christ is risen! In order to answer the question of the nature of Christ’s death, we must first be satisfied that what the Bible teaches about His life is true.

Hebrews 2:6-18 describes the nature in which Christ came to this earth as being "like unto his brethren." In coming like His brethren, He took upon His sinless nature our sinful fallen nature. He experienced everything to the full that the unrepentant sinner must experience. Otherwise we have no Savior. When we read that Christ was "tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin," (Hebrews 4:15) we must also understand that He was made to be sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21).

In taking upon Himself our humanity, Christ became the representative for the human race. In reality, the Bible speaks of only two men, the first and second Adams. The first Adam was tempted and fell to temptation. The second Adam was tempted on the very same points and was victorious. Thereby, a robe of righteousness was woven on the loom of heaven, the flesh of Christ.

It is true that Christ and the prophets spoke of His resurrection on the third day but somehow, in the end, in taking sin upon Him, He began to understand the depth of sin and depth to which He must go to save a lost race. Somehow, everything He had learned about His resurrection changed. His admonition to the disciples that the flesh is weak was something that He felt deep within Himself.
In Gethsemane, He questioned His mission, wondering if there were any possibility of finding a different way, a different answer to the sin problem. But no answer came. What He received instead was encouragement that His course was correct and that it was the only way to satisfy the just demands of a broken Law.

In Gethsemane, the "place of the press," His sweat came in great drops as blood. Sin was pressing the life from the Savior. It was not His own personal sin, but the sin of the world that broke the heart of the Son of God. We read in Isaiah 53 that He was "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

By rights, Christ should never have been crucified, but stoned. He had been accused of blasphemy—of claiming to be God (Matthew 26:65; John 8:58). The punishment for blasphemy was stoning (Leviticus 24:16) but that would not have satisfied the Jewish leaders. They demanded confirmation that Christ was a liar, and in fact not God. They demanded crucifixion, a symbol of rejection by God, suspended between God and man, rejected by all (Deuteronomy 21:22, 23).
When Christ cried out in the garden, "O my Father, let this cup pass from me," (Matthew 26:39) this was no idle prayer. He understood the path which He must take and His soul was "exceeding sorrowful" (v. 38).
On the cross, when He cried out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"– these were not empty words. He felt eternally separated from God. He experienced the torment that the unrepentant sinner will experience. (Mark 15:34; Psalm 22:1). The wages of sin is eternal death. Christ died the equivalent of that death. He drank the cup to it’s bitter dregs (Isaiah 51:22) so that we will not have to drink it.

Christ died the equivalent of the second death for every man. That’s Good News! We do not need to die that terrible death of separation from the Father, though we can choose that end. The second death is for unbelievers (Revelation 21:8). It was never designed that way, for the Lord would not have any perish. Christ died for every man— even the unrepentant sinner. Unfortunately there will be many who choose death rather than life. It’s a choice we each must make. (Deuteronomy 30:19). Therefore, choose life.

If anyone dies the second death it will be because they have chosen it. They will have spurned the death of Christ. What they experience will be no different than what Christ experienced on the Cross. The fire that snuffs out their lives will come as sweet relief from the knowledge of what they have done in their rejection of the Son of God. In all the history of the universe there has only been one real death— the death of Christ.

I have appreciated this passage from The Desire of Ages, p. 753,

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God.

* In a technical sense, it would have been impossible for Christ to die the second death for that death will not literally occur until after the close of the millennium. (Revelation 20:14). .."

http://gospel-herald.com/christ_second_death.htm

Last edited by Rick H; 09/07/13 11:05 PM.
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Rick H] #155895
09/07/13 11:01 PM
09/07/13 11:01 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Now, the view of the Second Death has been that of the final destruction of the wicked, but what is it essentially or as the writer above puts it, the 'equivalent' which Jesus suffered. Lets look first at the Spirit of Prophecy on the Second Death...

Chapter 41—The Second Death

But Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan not only bore the weight and punishment of his sins, but the sins of all the redeemed host had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of the souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan, and all the wicked host, were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, Amen!

Satan rushes into the midst, and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and the mighty men, and the noble, and poor and miserable men, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering was there. Said the angel, The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.

Said the angel, Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They will never have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe. I then looked, and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken up, and uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain. God’s entire universe was clean, and the great controversy was forever ended. Every where we looked, every thing the eye rested upon, was beautiful and holy. And all the redeemed host, old and young, great and small, cast their glittering crowns at the feet of their Redeemer, and prostrated themselves in adoration before him, and worshiped him that liveth forever and ever. The beautiful New Earth, with all its glory, was the eternal inheritance of the saints. The kingdom, and dominion, and greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was then given to the saints of the Most High who were to possess it forever, even forever and ever.

Spiritual Gifts. Volume 1, Page 217-219

http://egwtext.whiteestate.org/publicati...;pagenumber=219

Last edited by Rick H; 09/07/13 11:03 PM.
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Rick H] #155896
09/07/13 11:02 PM
09/07/13 11:02 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Now my understanding is that Christ at the cross experienced complete separation from the Father, something which the wicked will have with the second death, but God will not bring back the wicked as they have sin which Christ did not.

Lazarus died the death which is just a sleep to the one who can resurrect, so even in death God has us in his memory ready to bring us back. But if we die the second death, we are separated completely from God, and because of their sin those who die this death cannot be brought back. Christ had all the sins of the world on his shoulders when he died at the cross, and because of this sin He carried, was 'sundered' or completely separated from God, yet it was not His sin.

Here is SOP which clearly shows the separation...

'It was to redeem us that Jesus lived and suffered and died. He became "a Man of Sorrows," that we might be made partakers of everlasting joy. God permitted His beloved Son, full of grace and truth, to come from a world of indescribable glory, to a world marred and blighted with sin, darkened with the shadow of death and the curse. He permitted Him to leave the bosom of His love, the adoration of the angels, to suffer shame, insult, humiliation, hatred, and death 'The chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.' Isaiah 53:5. Behold Him in the wilderness, in Gethsemane, upon the cross! The spotless Son of God took upon Himself the burden of sin. He who had been one with God, felt in His soul the awful separation that sin makes between God and man. This wrung from His lips the anguished cry, 'My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?' Matthew 27:46. It was the burden of sin, the sense of its terrible enormity, of its separation of the soul from God-it was this that broke the heart of the Son of God."-Steps to Christ, p. 13.http://www.whiteestate.org/books/sc/sc1.html

Here we see the burden of whole worlds sin, the cup of iniquity He had to take upon himself and the results of the sundering of the divine powers..

"10 (Hebrews 5:8, 9; Isaiah 53:10). Sundering of the Divine Powers—The Captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering. His soul was made an offering for sin. It was necessary for the awful darkness to gather about His soul because of the withdrawal of the Father’s love and favor; for He was standing in the sinner’s place, and this darkness every sinner must experience. The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin. This sundering of the divine powers will never again occur throughout the eternal ages (Manuscript 93, 1899)."S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, Page 924 http://egwtext.whiteestate.org/publicati...;pagenumber=924

Last edited by Rick H; 09/07/13 11:06 PM.
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Rick H] #155897
09/07/13 11:03 PM
09/07/13 11:03 PM
Rick H  Offline
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In order to understand we have to look at what the second death is.

It first appears in Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Now Christ had certainly no sin of his own, but he had ours.

Then we see it in Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This clearly refers to the second coming and makes clear the saints will not suffer the second death.

Then we have the only definition to be found in Scripture for the second death: Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And we see it repeated in Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So literally it is “…the lake of fire. This is the second death.” and Revelation 21:8 repeats this same definition: “…the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

So we see what the scripture gives us on the second death, but what does it mean as the ultimate in how God will handle sin. Lets take a look at Early Writings where we are told:

“The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death – a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection.” {Early Writings 51}

A everlasting death is really a total separation from God. Since eternity, the Son and the Father had coexisted, at Christ's baptism the Holy Ghost and the Father had shown the connection with Christ. Yet Christ had come down as flesh, and was tempted and had faith as we have and knowing what was to come. So a total separation from God was a test beyond what we could imagine, thus his anguish.

Matthew 27
45Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Here is a good article on the 'sundering'

http://www.lbm.org/resources/missionupdates/mu0309.pdf

Here is the best explanation I have come across ...

"..If He only died the death that all of us die, then He didn't die the death which the sinner ultimately deserves, which is eternal death. But He went through the horrors of the second death so that we don't have to. The wages of sin is death, not only the first death, but especially the second death. That is the death that had to be died if Jesus was to pay in full the debt that we owe..."

Eternal Death is a complete separation from God, and I would say Christ experienced that...

Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Rick H] #155901
09/07/13 11:49 PM
09/07/13 11:49 PM
APL  Offline
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And how was the Father involved? Was Christ executed by the Father?

NO.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: APL] #155909
09/08/13 03:55 AM
09/08/13 03:55 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
And how was the Father involved? Was Christ executed by the Father?

NO.


Why do you kick against the pricks?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God. Man has not been made a sin-bearer, and he will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Saviour bore. No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. Human nature can endure but a limited amount of test and trial. The finite can only endure the finite measure, and human nature succumbs; but the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering; for the human existed in the Divine nature, and created a capacity for suffering to endure that which resulted from the sins of a lost world. The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ to the repenting, believing sinner. {BTS, September 1, 1915 par. 7}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155914
09/08/13 10:59 AM
09/08/13 10:59 AM
Johann  Offline
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Life or death?

Quote:
God declares, “I will put enmity.” This enmity is supernaturally put, and not naturally entertained. When man sinned, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. The lofty usurper, having succeeded in seducing our first parents as he had seduced angels, counted on securing their allegiance and cooperation in all his enterprises against the government of Heaven.... But when Satan heard that the seed of the woman should bruise the serpent’s head, he knew that though he had succeeded in depraving human nature ... , yet by some mysterious process God would restore to man his lost power, and enable him to resist and overcome his conqueror. {TMK 16.3}
It is the grace that Christ implants in the soul that creates the enmity against Satan. Without this grace, man would continue the captive of Satan, a servant ever ready to do his bidding. The new principle in the soul creates conflict where hitherto had been peace. The power which Christ imparts, enables man to resist the tyrant and usurper. Whenever a man is seen to abhor sin instead of loving it, when he resists and conquers those passions that have held sway within, there is seen the operation of a principle wholly from above. The Holy Spirit must be constantly imparted to man, or he has no disposition to contend against the powers of darkness.22 {TMK 16.4}
Shall we not accept the enmity which Christ has placed between man and the serpent? ... We have a right to say, In the strength of Jesus Christ I will be a conqueror. {TMK 16.5}


Quote:
the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering; for the human existed in the Divine nature, and created a capacity for suffering to endure that which resulted from the sins of a lost world. The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ to the repenting, believing sinner. {BTS, September 1, 1915 par. 7}


Which part of Christ died on the cross?

Which part of Christ saves us? How?

Last edited by Johann; 09/08/13 10:59 AM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155919
09/08/13 01:27 PM
09/08/13 01:27 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
And how was the Father involved? Was Christ executed by the Father?

NO.


Why do you kick against the pricks?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God. Man has not been made a sin-bearer, and he will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Saviour bore. No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. Human nature can endure but a limited amount of test and trial. The finite can only endure the finite measure, and human nature succumbs; but the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering; for the human existed in the Divine nature, and created a capacity for suffering to endure that which resulted from the sins of a lost world. The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ to the repenting, believing sinner. {BTS, September 1, 1915 par. 7}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
" By causing the death of the Sovereign of heaven, Satan defeated his own purpose." {RH, September 7, 1897 par. 13}

WHO caused the death of Christ? NOT the Father. Stop kicking!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: APL] #155921
09/08/13 01:49 PM
09/08/13 01:49 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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I repeat "No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force." --EGW.

Why was God angry with Jesus? Why did Jesus die?

Naturally, Jesus' death was occasioned by sin. Sin also separated Him from His Father, and this was partly the cause of His death. But what about the "second death" part? What exactly is that? It is not just an ordinary expiration of life. It is receiving the full penalty demanded by justice for the guilt of sin. And the Father gave Jesus this penalty. This was His "wrath."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death? [Re: Green Cochoa] #155922
09/08/13 03:57 PM
09/08/13 03:57 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
Why was God angry with Jesus?
WHAT? Was the Father ever ANGRY with Jesus? NEVER.

Did Jesus die the second death? If you believe so, then THERE IS YOUR ANSWER.

You sill do not understand what God's wrath is. Read Romans 1 again. And Again. And again. Read the story of the fiery serpents. Understand God's roll in the destruction of Jerusalem. THEN LOOK AGAIN AT JESUS.

Jesus IS the answer. Jesus IS the revelation of the CHARACTER OF THE FATHER.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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