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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: Rick H]
#155997
09/10/13 06:04 PM
09/10/13 06:04 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 6,368
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I think if we look at the story of Pharoah and the plagues its plain to see how God works. Rick - I agree with you !!! HOW did God smite the first born. Please include all scripture references on the topic. IF you do, you will see how. It was an expression of His wrath, just as it is explained in Romans 1.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156004
09/11/13 03:35 AM
09/11/13 03:35 AM
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SDA
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However, God does not force His love upon those who are unwilling to receive His mercy (see DA-22; DA-466; DA-759). They are wrong, as I see it. God loves them whether they want Him to love them or not. God is love, whether anyone accepts it or not. He loves, not because of who we are, but because of who He is.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: kland]
#156007
09/11/13 03:48 AM
09/11/13 03:48 AM
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Posts: 7,003
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You are the one who is not listening. Please point me to even one post where I have said that God murders. You will not find one.
Could you give something a little more challenging? Here's one: http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forum...true#Post155442 So you're saying that Saul failed to commit suicide, but God finished him off? By what means? Not necessarily. I'm saying God abandoned Saul, leaving him to die. Did David kill Uriah the Hittite? The Bible says he did. Do you believe that David did so? By whose sword? By the Philistine sword, right? God killed Saul in the same manner. God was the King in charge of that battle. His men were out there fighting the enemy. God abandoned Saul. The enemy sorely pressed him. He was wounded. He would have died anyhow, but he hastened his own death by taking things into his own hands due to his cowardice toward potential torture by his enemies. Be sure to read the following posts and note the lack of response from Green and then the Yes, I have said that God kills. But just because YOU do not see any difference does not mean that I or others do not. Your inability to discern the distinction between "kill" and "murder" does not equate to an inability on my part to listen.
Well, you've been asked to give the distinction between the two, but you have not. Why not? Can you? Are you able to give a distinction between killing and murder so that even an 8th grader can look at and review a situation and be able to determine the difference? kland, I have given the distinction before in this forum. It is a rather involved study, and focuses upon the laws of avengement given by God to the Israelite nation. I am too short on time to try to find those posts now, which seems like a daunting task to me given the number of my posts on this forum. I am also too short on time to rewrite the entire study here for you. But most importantly, I feel if I were to do so, you would not be benefited. It should be your own study. Pray about it, then study this for yourself. If you wish, look back through my posts here and see if you can come up with the ones I speak of dealing with the avenger of blood. You may find them. God bless, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: asygo]
#156008
09/11/13 03:49 AM
09/11/13 03:49 AM
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Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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God is love, whether anyone accepts it or not. He loves, not because of who we are, but because of who He is. Exactly. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156014
09/11/13 01:13 PM
09/11/13 01:13 PM
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Midland
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Well, you've been asked to give the distinction between the two, but you have not. Why not?
Can you? Are you able to give a distinction between killing and murder so that even an 8th grader can look at and review a situation and be able to determine the difference? I have given the distinction before in this forum. It is a rather involved study, and focuses upon the laws of avengement given by God to the Israelite nation. I am too short on time to try to find those posts now, which seems like a daunting task to me given the number of my posts on this forum. I am also too short on time to rewrite the entire study here for you. Rather involved. Takes a lot of time. A daunting task. Hmmm.... Sounds like to me you are saying you cannot give a distinction between killing and murder so that even an 8th grader can look at and review a situation and be able to determine the difference. So if you cannot explain it in simple terms that even an 8th grader can understand, why do you think it is so black and white?
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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156016
09/11/13 01:23 PM
09/11/13 01:23 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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God is love, whether anyone accepts it or not. He loves, not because of who we are, but because of who He is. Exactly. Blessings, Green Cochoa. And God does not force His love upon those who are unwilling to receive His mercy (see DA-22; DA-466; DA-759)
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: APL]
#156026
09/12/13 02:47 AM
09/12/13 02:47 AM
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APL, You misquote Mrs. White. There is never any statement in her writings that says "God does not force His love upon...." You won't find such a thing. The commentary is incorrect on this point, and you are too if you believe it. I searched the EGW CD for ["God forc* love" /12] and came up with just one statement in which those three words occur within 12 words of each other anywhere in her writings. (Note that the asterisk allows all forms of "force, such as: forced, forcing, forces, etc.) Here is the statement. The power of God alone can force it from its usurped position. Through love of the world the spiritual vision is blinded, and the pleasures and attractions of the future world are hid from sight. {ST, June 26, 1893 par. 4} From that, it looks like God does use force. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156036
09/12/13 01:41 PM
09/12/13 01:41 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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You misquote Mrs. White. There is never any statement in her writings that says "God does not force His love upon...." You won't find such a thing. The commentary is incorrect on this point, and you are too if you believe it.
I searched the EGW CD for ["God forc* love" /12] and came up with just one statement in which those three words occur within 12 words of each other anywhere in her writings. (Note that the asterisk allows all forms of "force, such as: forced, forcing, forces, etc.) Here is the statement. Green - you black and white view is showing again. The commentary makes a statement, and you want that statement to be a direct quotation. The comment was backed up by several references. The comment: " However, God does not force His love upon those who are unwilling to receive His mercy". Green says this is untrue! Let's see the first quote listed for this statement above. The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1} Well it sure sounds like God does not use force to get His way. In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. {DA 466.4} Are you keeping score? Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God’s government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1} I would say, the score for green's view in these THREE EGW quotations, is 0. And there are more.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: APL]
#156037
09/12/13 02:04 PM
09/12/13 02:04 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL, Let's see how your score adds up.  Remember, it is the following that you are attempting to support: God does not force His love upon those who are unwilling to receive His mercy. "Love cannot be commanded." God cannot force us to love Him. This does not mean that God does not love us if we don't want Him to! In other words, your quotation is misapplied. Score = 0 so far. "In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve." This says nothing about whether or not God will force HIS love upon US. It says "no external force is employed." Is God's love an external force? or is it something that we sense internally? In fact, we were told in the previous quote that "to know God is to love Him." That seems to say if we don't know Him, we won't know about His love. Such a love cannot be forced...for it comes from knowledge--and knowledge is an uniquely internal sort of thing. Score still at 0. "Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government." Indeed. But APL may have missed that last sentence. Take a look at this: "God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." It appears here that love indeed is powerful. What does "prevailing" mean? Score still = 0. Now, for Green Cochoa's scores on the side of love being a force for good which God uses on everyone, whether or not they wish it. The winning power of His love compels souls to come in. And to Christ they say, "Thy gentleness hath made me great." Psalm 18:35. {COL 235.2} Score = 1. His triumphs were gained by love, not by force. In coming to Christ the sinner consents to be elevated to the noblest ideal of man. {3SP 256.3} Ellen White uses love as an opposite principle to that of "force." In other words, if God uses love, even if He "forces" that love upon sinners, it is not considered to be "force" by definition. Score ++. He would have to press his invitation upon men, and by the manifestation of redeeming love, compel them to come in. {RH, March 3, 1896 par. 6} Love is clearly used here to "compel." If it were "force," then God just used "compelling force." But love is not force. Score ++. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Did Christ Die the Second Death?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156038
09/12/13 02:55 PM
09/12/13 02:55 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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"Love cannot be commanded." God cannot force us to love Him. This does not mean that God does not love us if we don't want Him to! In other words, your quotation is misapplied. Score = 0 so far. God loves us unconditionally. No where in this comment does it say God does not love us. Bringing this up is not a relavent to the question if God forces His unconditional love on us. Score, Green=0. His triumphs were gained by love, not by force. In coming to Christ the sinner consents to be elevated to the noblest ideal of man. {3SP 256.3} Green's comment: Ellen White uses love as an opposite principle to that of "force." In other words, if God uses love, even if He "forces" that love upon sinners, it is not considered to be "force" by definition. Huh? If He uses "force", then it is not force? Green=0. He would have to press his invitation upon men, and by the manifestation of redeeming love, compel them to come in. {RH, March 3, 1896 par. 6} Love is clearly used here to "compel." If it were "force," then God just used "compelling force." But love is not force. This is green's force is not force principle. A true knowledge of God is to know His love. Knowing God IS eternal life. One will not come in by force. If they would, then elle is right and everyone will be saved.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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